The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 10:01 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good morning and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on your agenda. I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting. They're equally applicable to Members in the Siambr as those joining virtually.
This meeting will be held in a hybrid format with some Members in the Senedd Siambr and others joining by video-conference. Having consulted with the Business Committee, I have determined that in accordance with Standing Order 34.14A-D, Members will be able to vote from any location via electronic means. I also note that in accordance with Standing Order 34.15, the public have been excluded from attending this Plenary meeting is required to safeguard public health. The meeting will be broadcast live, and a Record of Proceedings will be published in the usual way.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Hefin David.

The Small Business Sector

Hefin David AC: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on the gradual reopening of the small business sector in Wales following the COVID-19 lockdown? OQ55478

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Hefin David for that question. The reopening of the whole business sector in Wales has been carried out in consultation with businesses, representative bodies and trade unions to ensure that our approach to reopening is safe, proportionate and fair to businesses, workers and to customers. I announced further lockdown-easing measures and a supporting timetable on Friday of last week.

Hefin David AC: As you can imagine, First Minister, Friday is a very busy day both on my Facebook page and by e-mail, where I've got questions about specific circumstances. I've had many questions, but I've picked two of the most frequently asked.
The first of those is regarding the ability for driving instructors to offer lessons: when will driving instructors be able to offer lessons, and by extension, when will test centres then be able to open? And the other most frequently asked question is children's play centres: when will children's play centres be able to open? And that includes such things as soft play.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Hefin David for both of those questions. I'm very pleased to be able to say, Llywydd, that we have reached an agreement with the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency. I'm very grateful for their co-operation on this matter, and the discussions with them and the trade unions over the last week. As a result, I'm able to confirm today that we will introduce a phased restart in Wales, with driver and rider instructions commencing on 27 July, and tests—both theory tests and practical tests—phased in from 3 August onwards. And by doing it in that way, we can be confident that the reopening of driving lessons and testing in Wales will be done safely for everyone concerned, including those taking lessons and those conducting testing. The guidance will be provided in this instance, Llywydd, by the DVSA, and they will set it out together with a more detailed timetable on their website very shortly.
As for children's play centres, indoor children's play centres, Llywydd, there is no time as yet identified for them to reopen. They will be part of the discussions that we committed to during this three weeks with leisure centres and local authorities, and as soon as we are safely able to reopen those play centres indoors, then we will do so. Outdoor play areas, of course, are able to reopen from 20 July.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Bore da. First Minister, in reply to my questions last week, you said that I had not grasped the practicalities of reopening hospitality businesses, so I ask you: what do you say to ShibberAhmed of the Blue Elephant restaurant in Llandudno, who documents that, 'This Welsh Labour Government is creating an unfriendly environment for the nation's hospitality businesses',as you continue to prevent his company from safely reopening indoor trade? What do you say to Laurie and Paul, two local north Wales hoteliers, who tell me that your actions risk turning our seaside resorts into ghost towns, as they have received an unprecedented number of cancellations following your own announcement last week? What do you say to Go North Wales, who've written to you and state, 'after 20 years of owning hotels successfully to a high standard, the Welsh Government have successfully broke us of cash, spirit and mind'?
First Minister, with projected turnover expected to be at 25 per cent of pre-lockdown levels, and the current uncertainties threatening up to 22 per cent of jobs in this sector, is it not you that has failed to grasp the reality and situation that is facing our hospitality businesses? And when are you going to provide some guidance or just some information, so that our hoteliers and our restaurants can actually get back to work? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, well, the answer to those questions is that I think people are better advised to focus on those things they can do, rather than complaining about the things that they can't, because there is ample scope for all those businesses to now reopen in Wales, to reopen out of doors as from Monday of this week, and provided a success is made of that and coronavirus is still under control, to reopen indoors from 3 August.
The reports I have had from our hospitality and our tourism sector is that they have had a very good start indeed to the reopening of the season, with hundreds and hundreds of bookings being made in Wales. Those in the sector who are progressive and positive look at the things that they are now able to do and make a success of those, rather than writing letters complaining about the things that they're unable to do. In that way, they will be able to make a success of their businesses and of the sector.

Professional Sport

Mike Hedges AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for professional sport? OQ55449

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that, Llywydd. Our economic resilience fund has been open for applications from professional sports organisations, and over £0.75 million pounds has been provided to the sector as a result.

Mike Hedges AC: First Minister, thank you for your response. I want to stress the importance of professional sport. Since March, professional sport in Wales has either not been playing or been played without spectators. Professional sports clubs like the Ospreys and Swansea City football club are major employers in Swansea, as well as their importance as ambassadors for the area and the provision of entertainment. There is an urgent need for financial support for professional sport until spectators are allowed to return, unless we're facing the horrendous prospect of having no professional sport below international level. What further financial support is the Welsh Government proposing to give to professional sport in Wales until spectators can return?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, as I said, we have already provided significant financial support to a number of professional sports organisations in Wales—over £0.75 million in total. I'm pleased to say that some of those beneficiaries are directly in the Member's own area. And we have announced an £8.5 million sports resilience fund, and £4.5 million of that is for national governing bodies, and that will be of assistance to the sector as well.
But I want to agree with what Mike Hedges said about the importance of professional sport, both as significant employers in parts of Wales, but also the part that watching and enjoying professional sport plays in the lives of so many of our fellow citizens. When we will be in a position to return to spectators in large numbers at those events, I think it's too early, I'm afraid, to be able to say that.
In the meantime, while professional sport played behind closed doors clearly doesn't have the atmosphere and the attraction that it would otherwise, it can, however, be done successfully. As someone who spent most of the weekend listening to the test match, it was as gripping as a spectator remotely as it would have been had the ground been full.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, one way of supporting professional sport in Wales would be to relax the social distancing rules and allow Welsh stadiums to reopen. The chief executive of the English Rugby Football Union makes the point that reducing social distancing measures to 1m, which is the World Health Organization's recommendation and guidance, results in a capacity of 40,000 people in an 80,000 seater stadium, compared to fewer than 10,000 if 2m is adhered to. Given that the Welsh Rugby Union is facing forecast losses of some £107 million due to coronavirus, what discussions have you had with the WRU about introducing measures like relaxing social distancing measures to 1m to enable Wales to play its home matches in Welsh grounds?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, we've had a series of discussions with the WRU, and I've been involved directly in some of those myself. We are providing significant assistance already to the Welsh Rugby Union and are in discussions with them about further assistance that we may be able to provide.
The thought of 40,000 people coming together in a mass event is certainly not consistent with the approach to tackling coronavirus that we have had here in Wales. The risk that that would pose to the health of those people attending, and to those people who'd have to be employed in order to allow that to happen, is simply not within the realms of what a sensible approach to dealing with this global pandemic would suggest.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. First of all today, the leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, last week, a study published by Oxford's Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science found that face coverings are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 for the wearer and those around them, and this adds, of course, to a growing body of evidence that supports the same conclusion. The study further noted that after the World Health Organization announced the pandemic in mid March, some 70 countries immediately recommended the universal use of masks. To date, more than 120 nations now require mask wearing—that's more than 60 per cent of the world. They're mandatory in Scotland, as we know, in shops, and the same will be true in England from 24 July—a rather inexplicable delay, in my view.
Your careful approach, in terms of the easing of restrictions, has served well in many ways, but you now, I think, risk treading the line between being too cautious and being too slow on this issue. Why is Wales lagging behind when so many other countries have acted so decisively?

Mark Drakeford AC: I just reject the language of lagging behind. We are doing the things that are right for Wales. That does not mean following anybody else just because they have done something that we have decided not to do.
Llywydd, if you would allow me, I just want to take a minute more than I normally would to explain the Welsh Government's position on this issue, given that it is a matter of public interest. First of all, it's important to think of the context here. Regulations require that any restriction on the liberty of Welsh citizens has to be proportionate to the public health risk that is faced.
What is the state of the virus here in Wales? Well, it is at its lowest ebb since the onset of the crisis. The positivity rate in the 7,000 tests a day that were carried out in Wales over the weekend was 0.25 per cent—one quarter of 1 per cent—or 20 tests out of 7,000 returning as being positive. By contrast, the positivity rate in Blackburn, where lockdown measures are being reintroduced, is 7 per cent—30 times the rate in Wales. Large parts of Wales didn't have a single positive case over the whole of last weekend—14 of the 22 local authorities, from memory, without a single reported positive case. The proportionality test: is it proportionate to require every Welsh citizen going into a shop to wear a face covering, when the virus is in such a low state of circulation here in Wales?
Then, the issue of shops. Well, shops are different in Wales because our regulations are different. Quite unlike across our border, we have had the 2m social distancing rule in regulations, and it remains the default position here in Wales: a legal obligation on businesses to take all reasonable measures to ensure a 2m distance. And, since Monday, there are now new legal obligations on shops to take a further set of mitigating measures where a 2m distance cannot be sustained, and letters have gone to all the major supermarkets yesterday ensuring that they are aware of the law in Wales and their obligation to adhere to it.
And then, finally, Llywydd, is it unambiguously and clearly advantageous that access to shops should be denied to those not wearing face coverings? Our chief medical officer's advice has not changed: they have a marginal utility but they also have identifiable downsides. Some people behave more riskily because they are wearing a face covering. Some people can't wear face coverings: people with lung conditions, people with asthmatic conditions. Some people are disadvantaged when others wear face coverings: the visually impaired, people relying on lip reading. And, once it's compulsory, it will have to be enforced. So, Llywydd, we keep it all under review. I've asked for further advice, for example, on suggestions that supermarkets in tourist destinations have been crowded over this last weekend as populations in those areas increase. Mandatory use of face coverings as part of a local lockdown, should that become necessary, would certainly be part of a potential repertoire here in Wales. And if the prevalence of coronavirus in Wales were to rise, our advice would be revisited. In the meantime, the position in Wales is that anybody going into a shop who wishes to wear a face mask is absolutely entitled to do so. Our advice is that, if it's crowded, you should wear one. But, should we made it mandatory in all the conditions I've described? Should we trespass on people's liberty to that extent? We haven't reached that point in Wales.

Adam Price AC: The University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation recently projected the difference between universal use of face masks in the UK between now and November would be 20,000 additional deaths. On a proportionate basis, we would be talking about around a 1,000 deaths potentially in Wales. As part of the review that he's referred to, would he specifically ask the technical advisory cell and the chief medical officer to look at that study and whether it does have an evidential force that would suggest that we need to change the policy and we need to change it fast?
Can I ask the First Minister—? In relation to the care sector, we've heard from Care Forum Wales their expression of disappointment that they've not been given any assurances on whether weekly testing for staff will continue. Are you able today, First Minister, to allay the sector's concerns and announce your care home testing strategy going forward?

Mark Drakeford AC: On Mr Price's first point, I've seen that study, and I'm very happy to ask the technical advisory group to look at it. At first reading, it does seem very implausible. We have managed in Wales to go from a position where we were reporting many tens of deaths every day to a position where there was no death at all reported in three or four days over the weekend, and during that period face coverings were never compulsory at all. So, how it is plausibly argued that we would have 1,000 extra deaths prevented simply by wearing face coverings—? At first reading, I found that very difficult to understand and to see the force of that argument, particularly when face coverings are nowhere near as much of a protection to you as sustaining a 2m social distance and doing the other things that have a greater impact on people's chances of contracting the virus. But, our technical advisory group is there to review evidence and I'm very happy that it should review that evidence as well.
This afternoon, Llywydd, my colleague Vaughan Gething will be answering a question, I understand, on care homes. He'll be able to explain the results of the analysis that we've been carrying out of the four weeks of weekly testing of care home staff—testing that revealed a prevalence of coronavirus amongst care home staff at 0.1 per cent, one person in every thousand. So, he will set out his conclusions as to what that means for testing in the care home sector in the weeks to come this afternoon, and what he will have to say will be the result of engagement directly with Care Forum Wales.

Adam Price AC: I think the point in that study and, indeed, of other scientists who have vigorously supported the use of face masks, is, as you change the level of restrictions and you therefore lead to more people being in more contact, having a face covering is an additional measure that can then change the number of cases and, indeed, the number of deaths.
Can I just stay with the care sector? If the COVID crisis has taught us anything it's the value of that sector. Care workers have been at the forefront of the battle against the virus, as we know. Their tireless efforts have been hampered at times by the often disjointed dynamic between our health and care sectors and the fact that they're not fairly rewarded for their work. Isn't this the time, First Minister, as we begin to think about a post-COVID Wales, for a national integrated health and care service free at the point of need that will synchronise our most vital public services and give care workers the pay rise and the pay structure that they deserve by moving them onto NHS pay scales? Nothing is stopping this from happening, from political will. Do you share it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I understand the point that Adam Price made about the study. It's why I said in my original answer that I'd ask for further advice on suggestions that supermarkets had become particularly crowded in some parts of Wales. Because, if that were to be the case, then, the case for the wearing of face coverings is strengthened in those contexts. So, I understand the point that he made there.
Llywydd, we have had a major programme within the Welsh Government of paying for care, drawing on the work of Professor Gerry Holtham and the proposals that he has made. And, sharing many of the points that Adam Price has made this morning about the value of the sector and the need to make sure that the people who work in it are properly regarded and rewarded, we will use that work to take policy forward in Wales. And we do very much need to see, Llywydd, a policy conclusion from the UK Government—the Dilnot review now nearly a decade old and still nothing to show for it—because anything we do in Wales will inevitably be affected by changes in the benefit system, which Dilnot proposed, and would have an impact on Welsh citizens as well. So, a Wales-alone solution will not work, because the intersections with decisions made in non-devolved areas will be material, and we will want to make sure that our actions take full account of changes that are made across the border and we need to know what those changes are going to be.

The leader of the Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, from 6 July, households in Wales have been permitted to join together to form an extended support bubble to enable families to reunite, meaning that people can form one extended household and meet indoors. That move was welcomed by many across Wales who, after months of being unable to see their loved ones, were finally able to spend some time with their families and with their friends. Given the pace at which so many changes are now being made, which now result in more and more people interacting with each other in outdoor and indoor spaces, perhaps it's time to consider the creation of further support bubbles, therefore. First Minister, can you tell us what scientific evidence is the Welsh Government using to underpin its policy on social bubbles? And can you also tell us what consideration the Welsh Government has given to further relaxing restrictions on this specific matter?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I believe that the evidence that we are drawing on was set out in a technical advisory group paper that we published. I'll check whether it is published and, if it's not, I'm very happy to share the paper with the leader of the opposition. It's a detailed paper. It draws very much on experience in New Zealand as the basis for the proposals that we are following here in Wales.
We will keep that policy under review during the current three-week cycle, which we're already well into the first week of. We'll use the additional headroom we had during this three weeks to attend to the urgent calls from the tourism industry and from hospitality to reopen those businesses in Wales, and once we've taken those decisions, then the amount of headroom you have got left to do more in the space of extended households, or households coming together in the open air or indoors, is inevitably limited. Provided we are in a position, at the end of this three-week cycle, that coronavirus in Wales is still under control, to the extent that I've already described this morning, there will be new possibilities, and using some of that headroom for further relaxation of the restrictions on family and friends meeting will definitely be part of that consideration.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, thanks to the people of Wales, significant progress has been made in limiting the spread of the virus in communities across Wales, which, of course, has allowed freedoms to have been relaxed in other areas. For example, a further set of coronavirus restrictions that have also been lifted in Wales, as you've just said, is in relation to self-contained accommodation, such as holiday cottages and caravans, reopening.
Wales's hospitality businesses across the country have also started reopening this week in outdoor areas, and many are looking at ways in which they can continue to comply with Government guidance when they reopen their internal spaces on 3 August. Therefore, given the immediate need to support hospitality businesses here in Wales, can you tell us what specific package of support the Welsh Government will provide in the short term? And will you also be bringing forward a specific strategy for the hospitality sector for both the medium and long terms to protect its sustainability and protect vital jobs? And what domestic tourism strategy is the Welsh Government developing so that we can maximise the amount of visitor spend and help support our tourism and hospitality businesses at this time?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, tens of millions of pounds of support has already been provided both to the tourism sector and, separately and additionally, to the hospitality sector here in Wales. That's in addition to all the help that the sector has received from the UK Government through the furlough scheme, which has been very important indeed in both of those industries. And many, many further applications have been made to phase 2 of the economic resilience fund, which closed on Friday of last week, again from those sectors. So, the sectors have had very significant support from the UK Government and from the Welsh Government in recognition of the enormous impact the coronavirus has had on them.
Our immediate strategy has focused very much on getting the sectors reopened and getting them reopened safely, and that remains our focus over the next few weeks, because success needs to be made of these first steps in order that we can build on them further and continue to reopen the sector. And the resources of the Welsh Government, the staffing resources, our ability to engage directly with the sector has been very much focused on that strategy, getting these industries up and working again. Once we manage to do that successfully, then, of course, we will continue to work both with tourism and hospitality, together with them, to shape a future through the rest of this year that builds on whatever success we can achieve and allows them to go on earning a living in the way that they do, providing employment in the way that they do, and contributing into the Welsh economy in a very significant way.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, the gradual reopening of the hospitality sector in Wales provides further opportunities for people to socially interact with members from outside their households. I recently met with local hospitality businesses to discuss the ongoing impact of COVID-19 and the Welsh Government's regulations, and the message was clear: this year, most hospitality businesses are simply focusing on survival. Therefore, as restrictions continue to ease, it'll be crucial that we maximise the amount of spend locally in Wales, and I sincerely hope that the Welsh Government is refocusing its procurement practices to help our businesses recover. Wales's small and medium businesses need support now more than ever, and the Welsh Government must use any and all levers at its disposal to support businesses and champion local products and services. Therefore, First Minister, what new action is the Welsh Government taking in terms of its procurement practices to support Welsh businesses and help them recover? Could you also tell us what campaigning the Welsh Government is doing to encourage people to spend locally and support Welsh businesses to help rejuvenate local communities across the country? And, given the measures introduced by other countries across the world to support businesses, what consideration has the Welsh Government given to bringing forward financial incentives, such as business rate relief, to support Welsh businesses to recover from this pandemic?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, business rate relief is practically universal in these sectors at 100 per cent for the rest of this financial year, so there's nothing further we can do there, because they're not paying any business rates at all.
In terms of local spend and procurement, then the outstanding area in which we have been able to achieve new ground in this context is in personal protective equipment, where many Welsh businesses have answered the call that we made to help us to secure the necessary supplies of PPE for our health and social care sector—250 million items now issued, Llywydd, a million items being issued every day, 91 million items to social care alone. We wouldn't have been able to do that if we hadn't used our procurement in order to encourage Welsh businesses to convert what they were previously doing into the production of face masks, fluid-resistant gowns and other things that are now being supplied not just to Wales, but to other parts of the United Kingdom as well. I think that is a very good example of how, in a crisis, people can act really quickly, incredibly positively. We've been so grateful for what businesses in Wales have done in this area, and we want to do more of that, of course.
In terms of local spend, then the fact that our 'stay local' message in Wales wasn't lifted until just about a week or so ago means that people have indeed been spending locally in Wales during this pandemic, because that's where their lives have been led. I know that that, by itself, has managed to sustain a number of businesses who, without that local support, would not have been able to survive. I agree with what Paul Davies said: many businesses are indeed in survival mode at the moment. And our aim is to help them to survive so that when the better days come, they will be there to continue their previous success. But that survival has only been possible, in many contexts, because people have stayed local, because they have spent local and they've supported those local businesses.

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, you've overseen a significantly higher COVID-19 infection rate in Wales than in the rest of the United Kingdom, as well as a worse economic situation. Despite this, you've found time to lambast the UK Government over its Brexit responsibilities, twice using the crisis to demand they extend the transition period, as you've once again tried to block Brexit. Now, we see your Minister for COVID economic recovery turn his focus to attacking the UK Government over the Gender Recognition Act 2004. He attacks it for failing formally to responding to a Gender Recognition Act consultation, and, we're told, for
'repeatedly delaying publication of the review.'
Is it possible that the UK Government has had other priorities?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'll try and pick something out of the question, if I can. Brexit certainly hasn't gone away, and Brexit is going to happen. All we are focused on is trying to help it to happen in a way that does not add a further layer of economic distress on companies in Wales who are already struggling, as Paul Davies said, to deal with the consequences of a global pandemic. That's all we're asking: simply that a disaster that nobody could have prevented is not made even worse by a disaster that is eminently preventable by the simple and straightforward course of action of asking for a short extension to the transition period to take account of the fact that, as the Member just said, people have been very busy doing other things. If that applies to the Gender Recognition Act, then surely it applies even more to a sensible approach to Brexit.
As far as the Gender Recognition Act review is concerned, all we're asking the UK Government to do is to do what they've said they would do. Nothing else. They have carried out the review, they have promised to publish it, they have not done so. All we're asking is that they do what they said they would.

Mark Reckless AC: In many areas, First Minister, you've understandably made commitments as a Government that it has not been possible to carry through or that have had to be delayed because of the COVID crisis. I merely suggest that you allow and accept that similar pressures affectthe UK Government. Wales voted for Brexit. You put forward your proposals on the area at the general election, and there's now a Conservative Government of a majority of 80. Surely you should accept that democratic decision.
We have certain areas that are devolved to Wales, and certain areas that are reserved. But again and again we see the Welsh Government failing to respect that settlement, failing to respect reserved powers. On gender recognition, I believe there are some difficult and challenging issues around balancing rights, but surely the way to deal with it for a reserved issue is to work within the framework set by UK Government, not declare a unilateral declaration of independence—instead, focus on the devolved powers you have, and making them work properly.
My concern with this, as so many others, is you lambast the UK Government over its exercise of reserved powers, yet complain when anyone criticises you in any way about what you do in a devolved context. You're always demanding more and more devolved powers, yet substantial numbers of people in Wales voted against devolution. Last time, those who supported it did so on the basis of an assurance on the ballot paper that
'the Assembly cannot make laws on…tax…whatever the result of this vote.'
Yet you, in cahoots with the Conservatives, broke that promise, and income tax powers were devolved without the promised further referendum. Isn't that why devolution in Wales is not settled, along with your refusal to respect reserved powers, and the fact that however much is devolved, it is never enough for politicians here?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, as I recall—and I may be wrong, because it's not always easy to keep up—the Member was a Conservative MP at the time that the Conservative Party broke what it had promised people in Wales about a referendum. He was a Conservative MP, he voted for the promise that was broken, and then he comes here to complain about it. There isn't a shred of credibility in what the Member has to say. Llywydd, I believe in assertive devolution, and that's the policy that this Government will pursue.

Question 3, Carwyn Jones. Question 3, Carwyn Jones.

Wake up.

Carwyn Jones AC: I thought I heard 'Caroline Jones'. Forgive me, Llywydd.

Financial Support for Businesses

Carwyn Jones AC: 3. Will the First Minister outline what financial support is available from the Welsh Government to businesses in Wales? OQ55469

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carwyn Jones for that question. Llywydd, our £1.7 billion business support package, which is equivalent to 2.6 per cent of our gross value added, complements other UK schemes and means that companies in Wales have access to the most generous offer of help anywhere in the United Kingdom during the coronavirus crisis.

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you, First Minister. Many businesses have contacted my constituency office to express their gratitude at the support that they've received from the Welsh Government and from the UK Government. There are still, however, some businesses who are concerned that they may not be able to access the support that they need, mainly microbusinesses. Would the First Minister then give an assurance that the support mechanisms will be kept under constant review to make sure that as much support as possible is available to as many businesses as possible?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Carwyn Jones for that supplementary question. As I've said previously in the Assembly, in the Senedd, we have tried to use our funds to complement the help that has been available through the UK Government schemes, and microbusinesses are one of those areas that we have focused on as a result. My colleague Ken Skates launched phase 2 of the economic resilience fund, Llywydd, as I mentioned—£100 million further to assist Welsh businesses. I know that my colleague Carwyn Jones will be interested to know that when the fund closed for applications on Friday of last week, the micro fund had received 5,524 applications, and if you totalled those applications up, that would have resulted in £54.2 million being applied for from the micro fund. The sole trader fund received 453 applications in the sum of £4.4 million, and I was very pleased myself to be able to launch the start-up business fund as part of phase 2 of the economic resilience fund, a £5 million fund. It could help up to 2,000 businesses to the tune of £2,500 each. All of those are aimed exactly at the sorts of businesses that Carwyn Jones has mentioned this morning, Llywydd, and I think are examples of the way in which we have tried to use our money to fill those gaps and to focus on those businesses that have slipped through the net of the large schemes that the UK Government has put in place, and use our money to the best effect.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, what would be devastating economically would be the need for either a second lockdown or a localised lockdown, and one of the key measures that you've put in place is test and tracing. Your figures for returning the results from test and tracing are getting worse. The figures for 24-hour delivery are under a 50 per cent response rate, and for 48 hours only 66 per cent of tests are returned to the people who've put themselves up for a test. How are you going to improve these figures to get closer to the 90 per cent that most experts believe provides an effective testing structure that would protect us economically, and also our health?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree with Andrew R.T. Davies that avoiding a second wave of coronavirus later this year is very important indeed to the health of businesses, as well to the health of the population, and it's why we have taken the approach we have here in Wales. And we are seeing in other parts of the world just how easily it is possible to move from a position of relative security to one where lockdown measures do have to be reimposed. So, I agree with his point there.
Our 'Test Trace Protect'system does need to return more tests more quickly, and we are working with the system for that to happen. We would have had better results at the end of last week if it hadn't been for the fact that one of the lighthouse labs, that we are now using in greater numbers, faced a series of difficulties last week that meant that their ability to return tests in 24 hours was compromised by the challenges that they faced. We are arranging for an enhanced courier service to make sure that tests are taken from the testing site to the laboratory more quickly and more regularly during the day. We are exploring with our Welsh laboratories ways in which they can turn those tests around more quickly.
In the meantime, the TTP system as a whole is, I'm pleased to say, working very well; 82 per cent of positive cases identified between 28 June and 4 July were successfully contacted, and 87 per cent of over 1,150 close contacts have been successfully followed up. And those figures compare very favourably with levels of successful follow-up that are being achieved elsewhere.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: A number of rural businesses over the years have been receiving business support through the rural development programme, for example, and we saw a recent report from Audit Wales that had highlighted maladministration by the Welsh Government on certain aspects of that—£53 million-worth had been distributed in a way that didn't have measures in place to secure value for money. We received confirmation in the rural development committee last week that there would be disallowance, and that there were negotiations now between the European Commission and the Welsh Government to recoup some, if not all, of those funds.
Would you now accept that it's time for us to have a full review of the way the RDP in Wales had been administered, and has been used, so that we can be confident that we have had the value for money that we should have had for this investment, particularly given that your Government now intends to use the RDP model, and the way that's implemented, as the basis for the plans that you're bringing forward for supporting agriculture and sustainable land management for the future? It's important that we learn lessons.

Mark Drakeford AC: Of course, I agree that it's important that we do learn lessons. We are doing that, and also the RDP has people to look into what we are doing on the European and local level. It's important to be clear about what the audit office said.

Mark Drakeford AC: What they said was that the processes didn't guarantee that value for money had been achieved, and we've improved those processes since. What they didn't say was that the schemes that were funded weren't value for money, because they never looked at the schemes at all, they simply looked at the process by which the schemes were funded. Quite a number of the schemes that they looked at have gone on to be award-winning schemes here in Wales, and beyond Wales as well. So, the report never said at all that the schemes themselves did not deliver value for money, they simply said that the process by which they were funded didn't give you a guarantee that the money had been spent in that way, and that's something we do need to attend to. Our focus, Llywydd, as well as learning lessons, is on trying to make sure that we have equivalent funding in the future to go on making those investments in the rural economy that the RDP has allowed us to make. And we're nowhere near having those guarantees from the UK Government, and it's not long now before that funding begins to run out.

Local Radio Stations

Dai Lloyd AC: 4. What assessment has the First Minister made of the importance of local radio stations in Wales? OQ55455

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Dr Lloyd for that. The Welsh Government recognises the importance of local radio stations in ensuring that the people of Wales have access to vital local news and information, which has been crucial during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dai Lloyd AC: First Minister, this week saw the final ever Sunday Hotline, presented by Kev Johns on Swansea Sound. The hotline had run for decades and was well valued by local residents, providing a unique opportunity for people to raise local issues of concern and to question local politicians. Sadly, the station will leave the airwaves in September, as part of a rebranding exercise. Now, there are more than enough UK-wide or regional networks, all reporting the same news, with the same presenters. What we are lacking is truly local radio that reflects local people's lives. Do you therefore agree that one way of reversing this loss is to devolve broadcasting to this Parliament and to develop our own local commercial radio station footprint here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with the points that the Member has made about the importance of local broadcasting. I appeared on the Kev Johns programme myself once, in the company of my colleague Mike Hedges, and a very good experience it was—a very skilful broadcaster, with a real rapport with his local audience, and very well able to convey the things that were of most concern to them.
My understanding, Llywydd, is that, though Swansea Sound will no longer operate in its name, the purchaser of the Wireless Group's local radio stations has not asked Ofcom for any change in the remit of that station. It will therefore be required, when it does reopen, to fulfil the original format, and that includes commitments relating to Welsh language programming and local news and information. And we will certainly be expecting Ofcom to ensure that those commitments are delivered in the way that the new station will operate, both for the benefit of Swansea residents and for those who surround that area.
The wider debate, Llywydd, is one we've had many times here on the floor of the Senedd and in Senedd committees. Our immediate focus is on making sure, as I say, that the obligations on the new owner to deliver a local service that successfully reflects the unique language, culture and concerns of the communities that the station serves—that those commitments are delivered upon. And we will be focusing on that, as I say, directly in communication with Ofcom itself.

David Melding AC: First Minister, we've seen the great benefit of regional, local and indeed community radio during this crisis, bringing great comfort to many people as they have had to spend so much time at home, with local news and features. And I just wonder if you can do more to use procurement, help with training grants, and also public health messages, and putting as many as possible through these routes. The Welsh Government in the way it acts economically can help these vital networks.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree with all of those points. We've used our advertising budget during the coronavirus crisis directly to place advertising with local radio, including Swansea Sound. We've done our best to offer as much access to those local outlets as possible so that they can use their platforms to make sure that people have the information that they need. And in the daily press conferences that we have been holding, Llywydd, we've had 12 local broadcasters regularly taking place—again, including Swansea Sound. And I, myself, have given interviews to 20 different local radio and local newspapers over the last three months, again just to make sure that they have direct access to the Welsh Government so we can support them in the work that they do.
We've repurposed our independent community journalism fund and seven publications in Wales have shared in £76,500 of funding to support them in the financial challenges they face, and we have helped two stations to have access to Ofcom's £400,000 community radio fund. Ofcom intend to launch, quite soon, the second iteration of that fund, and the Welsh Government will work with community radio stations in Wales to make sure that they have the best chance of securing funding from that source as well.
So, I agree with David Melding about the importance of the things that we can do to help, and I hope that I've been able to demonstrate that, in all the different things we're able to do, we have very much had local print and broadcasting outlets at the forefront of our thinking during the pandemic.

The Manufacturing Sector

David Rees AC: 5. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to support the manufacturing sector in Wales? OQ55476

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government's manufacturing manifesto was due to be published on 2 April. While formal consultation has not been possible because of the coronavirus crisis, the themes of the manifesto—skills, infrastructure, research and leadership, for example—continue to shape our support for the sector.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I look forward to the publication of the manifesto because it is critical. Welsh manufacturing has been the bedrock of much of our economy over the years, and actually over the centuries, and it's important. We need to keep that going. We have seen losses in Airbus, GE. Manufacturing has been hit by COVID very severely.
Now, the UK Government seems to have failed to actually consider manufacturing, and is not giving the support it should be giving. But this Welsh Government needs to give that support to ensure that it continues to thrive throughout the years ahead of us. Can you give me guarantees that the Welsh Government will continue to support manufacturing, particularly in areas that have faced difficulties, and I'll include steel in that area, as well as the aviation sector, so that we can continue to have the highly skilled, well-paid jobs in Wales that they've always supported?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm very happy indeed to provide that assurance to David Rees. He's right, 10.7 per cent of Welsh employment takes place in the manufacturing sector, compared to 7.9 per cent of the UK employment in that sector. So, it's obviously of much greater importance to us here in Wales, and particularly to communities of the sort that David Rees so regularly speaks up for here on the floor of the Senedd.
I want to recognise where the UK Government has stepped in to help. On 2 July the emergency loan to Celsa, in the steel industry, was a very important decision and has helped to safeguard 800 jobs here in south Wales. But that is the example of what more is needed. We absolutely have to have sectoral employment protection schemes for steel, for automotive and for aerospace. Those are fundamental industries here in Wales. They face existential crises as a result of coronavirus, and each one of them needs a bespoke package of help from the UK Government in order to make sure that they are here the other side of this crisis, because the UK economy needs a steel industry, the UK economy needs a successful aerospace industry, and only the UK Government has that firepower, as my colleague Ken Skates has put it, to step in and provide help of the sort that is needed.
The Welsh Government will continue to do the things that we do—investing in skills, investing in research, helping with local investments that we can put in place, as we have with Tata in Port Talbot—but the nature of the crisis is such that it is a UK response that is needed and, sadly, we didn't hear anything of it in the summer statement of Wednesday last week.

Russell George AC: First Minister, yesterday's NatWest business activity index reported a contraction in business activity in the manufacturing sector as a result of ongoing lockdown measures. In their report, they state that many businesses have reported that the ongoing lockdown measures have stymied growth opportunities. They also report a drop in new orders, which was higher than the UK average, and a downturn in new business. They also go on to say that this weak client demand has affected the manufacturing sector from hiring employees, and this rate of contraction in employment has also outpaced, sadly, the UK average. What assessment has the Welsh Government done on how the slower rate of reopening the economy has impacted livelihoods and in particular the Welsh manufacturing sector?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I don't think you need to do a great deal of analysis to understand that it is not the pace of Welsh economy lockdown lifting that has had the effect on Airbus or on Tata. It's nonsensical to suggest it. Those are global industries and it is global trading conditions that have led to the decisions that those industries are making.
The pace of the lockdown in Wales has had no impact upon that whatsoever, and really it just doesn't stand up to any form of serious—[Interruption.] No, the report doesn't suggest that—it's just a Tory gloss here, trying to rescue some point that they think they can make, rather than anything serious at all. The crisis facing those industries—. Don't wave it at me. Just because you've got it doesn't mean to say that you've understood it, does it? And, clearly, you haven't understood it, because if you read what Airbus had to say, if you read what Tata have to say—they are not saying that the global crisis that they face has been derived from the pace at which the lockdown in Wales has been lifted. It would be absurd. It's an absurd proposition. The Member should know better than to make it here.

The Armed Forces Covenant

Darren Millar AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for the Armed Forces Covenant? OQ55444

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Darren Millar for that question, Llywydd. The Welsh Government's support for the covenant was set out in the first annual report, published in May of last year. It set out actions in housing, health, education and employment. Further progress will be outlined in this year's annual report, to be laid before the Senedd in September.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Over the past few months we've seen our armed forces join the fight against the coronavirus here in Wales, doing some exceptional work in terms of helping with testing facilities, ensuring that there's adequate PPE delivered to key workers on the front line, and, of course, disinfecting ambulances in order to improve turnaround times. And I think it's important that we acknowledge that important role that the armed forces has played in the crisis.
One of the things that Wales has done extremely well, I think, is to take forward the agenda of honouring the armed forces covenant here in Wales, and one of the key parts of the commitment that the Welsh Government has made, of course, has been the delivery and support for armed forces liaison officers across the country. As you're aware, the funding for those posts comes to an end in March of next year, but I, and many others in this Chamber, on a cross-party basis, would like to see that support extended and those posts become permanent. Are you able to provide an update on the funding for those posts today?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thankDarren Millar for that further question, and I absolutely want to endorse what he has said about the exceptional work that we have seen in Wales from our liaison with the armed forces in the coronavirus crisis. It's been a remarkable part of the story of the last three months, the way in which we have been able to draw on the assistance of armed forces personnel. I got used at one point to seeing a lot of people in fatigues in Cathays Park in a way we've never seen before, and that help is now gradually being withdrawn as the systems that the military have helped us to put in place in Wales are there and are sustainable into the future. So, I'm very pleased indeed to endorse what Darren Millar said there.
Llywydd, I wrote to the Member on 16 June, promising him an update on future funding for the armed forces liaison officers before the end of this term. And I'm very glad indeed, therefore, to be able to confirm this morning that the Minister Hannah Blythynhas made the decision to invest a further £275,000 for each of the next two years, from April of 2021, and that is to sustain the very valuable work that armed forces liaison officers have carried out. I know that this was an idea very strongly supported by my colleague Alun Davies, when these posts were created, and I know as well that Darren Millar has been a very strong supporter of the individuals in these posts. The individual armed forces liaison officer for north Wales, Llywydd, for example, has trained over 500 front-line staff since coming into post, and that has helped to raise awareness of the covenant, where this question started. I'm very glad, therefore, this afternoon—this morning; I'm so used to being here in the afternoon, Llywydd—this morning, very pleased to confirm that those posts will remain funded by the Welsh Government beyond April of next year.

Restrictions In the Health Service

Michelle Brown AC: 7. What assessment has been made of how restrictions in the health service, put in place to contain the pandemic, have impacted those needing the NHS for non-COVID-19 related reasons? OQ55477

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, exceptional measures have been needed to respond to the public health crisis we have faced in Wales. However, as the demand for coronavirus services reduces, non-COVID-19 services are resuming in all parts of the NHS.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. The restrictions placed on maternity services have been particularly difficult for new and expectant parents. Expectant mothers are being told that they must attend anomaly scans on their own and that, even in the case of bad news, their partner can't be with them. Instead, they may be given written information they can go home with. Birthing partners are only allowed in once the mother has gone into established labour, and then they have to leave shortly after the baby's born. They're not allowed then to visit again. Even picking up their partner and new baby involves waiting outside, and, even if the baby needs to go into special care, only one parent is allowed in at a time to visit their newborn.
This particularly cruel restriction is in direct contravention of the advice issued during the pandemic by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, who say:
'At such a stressful time, it is important for both parents to be able to be present together, at least for part of the day'.
First Minister, similar restrictions are being lifted elsewhere in the UK. Scotland did so on Monday and their continuation here is causing anxiety to many parents to be. Can you tell worried, expectant parents across Wales when these restrictions will be lifted so they can, hopefully, share the joys of bringing a new life into the world, but also be with each other if they have to go through any heartbreaking experiences? And, on the off chance that they have been relaxed, why has no-one told the concerned expectant mothers?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm sorry, I just missed the very end of the question, but the points that were made in introducing the question are very real and important. All of us here will have heard from parents looking forward to the birth of a child and the additional pressure and indeed distress that they face because of the way that services have been provided during the crisis. But the answer as to why these restrictions have been in place is because of the particular vulnerability of people who are giving birth and the vulnerability of the new-born child; they've not been put in place for any reason other than to protect people's health. I can't give the Member, I'm afraid, a date in the way that she asks, because it won't be my decision; it will be the decision of clinicians, because it is the people who are in charge of the health of the mother and the baby who make the decisions here in Wales. And, when they are ready and they believe it is safe to do so, then of course they will want to lift some of those restrictions, because nobody wants to see them continue any longer than they need to.

Finally, question 8, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Town and Community Councils

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on support for town and community councils during the pandemic? OQ55474

Mark Drakeford AC: May I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth? We are engaging with the sector to understand the pressures arising from COVID-19 to tackle problems as quickly as possible. A range of support has been provided through emergency regulations to enable councils to operate safely, effectively and lawfully, while retaining the principles of openness and accountability.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. Holyhead Town Council has done its best over the years to improve facilities for the people of the town and the area, and one initiative that's been very successful is the reopening of the Empire cinema. Like so many businesses, the Empire lost its income entirely because of the pandemic. The council made a bid for funding from the economic resilience fund, but that was rejected, because the cinema was run by the council and wasn't a business entity in and of itself. This has created a major problem for the council. Cinemas will be allowed to open again in a few weeks' time, but I would like you to consider one thing: there will be a limitation on their ability to make money because they can't sell food and drink on the way in. That's one issue that I'd be grateful if you were to look at. But, more generally, I would like you to look at the rules that mean that a town council such as this has failed to access financial support, because I don't think it's fair that a town council like this one should be penalised for having tried to create an enterprise for its own people.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Holyhead Town Council is not being penalised at all. They can access funding from Government, because they could apply for funding from the £78 million that we have given to the sector because the councils are losing income, and that fund is available not just for the main local authorities, but also for a local council such as Holyhead Town Council. So, the best advice for the council is to submit an application or a bid for that money. We are aware of the situation that Holyhead is facing, because they've raised more than half the income they distribute by raising income—well, less than half—by raising the precept, so it's in a totally different situation to the vast majority of local councils, but that fund is available to them, and the best advice for them is to prepare a plan or a bid and submit that bid to see whether we can support them in that manner.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There's one change to today's agenda: the motions on the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 6) Regulations and No. 7 regulations have been withdrawn, and draft business for the next three sitting weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which is available amongst the papers that have been made available electronically to Members.

Darren Millar AC: I think it's a great shame, Trefnydd, that those particular regulations have been withdrawn without the opportunity for a debate on the action that has been taken on the coronavirus restrictions over the past six weeks in terms of the items that were contained in those restrictions, and I very much hope that the Welsh Government will reflect on providing an opportunity for Members of the Senedd to consider these matters perhaps in a different way through take-note debates in the future, prior to actual votes on regulations.
Can I call for two statements today, please, from the Welsh Government—the first in relation to tourism, in order to get some clarity on the reopening of permanent fairgrounds in Wales? I appreciate that the Welsh Government has taken the decision that, at the moment, funfairs must remain closed in Wales, but there are theme parks in Wales, which are allowed to open at the moment, and it does appear to be quite an inconsistency, when you consider that they're very similar sorts of operations in terms of making those facilities safe for people to visit. Businesses in my own constituency have lost quite a considerable amount of trade this last weekend, and I think it's imperative that we do whatever we can to make sure that they don't lose that business for future weekends. So, if we could have a statement on that, I'd be very grateful.
And, secondly, can I also call for a statement in relation to the future of local resilience forums in Wales? The National Association of Funeral Directors have called for a permanent presence on local resilience forums in order that they can be part of the planning process for future pandemics and other matters, so I think that should be considered and wonder whether we could have a statement on the matter. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Darren Millar for raising those issues and, of course, we had the opportunity to discuss the first issue that he raised, in terms of when we debate our regulations, at some length in the Business Committeeearlier this week, and I know that there'll be some further discussions between the Llywydd and the Government on that particular issue looking ahead.
In terms of tourism, I'll certainly seek that clarity that you're requiring in terms of the permanent fairgrounds and ensure that we find the best way to update Members on that, because I think the point that you make is important. As we start opening up more and more of our economy, then clearly there will be individual cases and individual types of business who want more detail on what it means for them, so I'll pursue that on your behalf.
On the issue of local resilience fora, I know that the Minister with responsibility for local government will be, obviously, listening to this, and will be taking into consideration the future of those fora as we move forward out of the crisis phrase and into the stabilisation and recovery phases.

Leanne Wood AC: Many community-based carers have worked right throughout the COVID crisis, and we know that staff and residents in care homes are being tested on a regular basis, whether they have symptoms or not. Carers who go into people's homes in the community are only tested if they're showing symptoms, which is a problem when we know that people can infect others when they don't show symptoms, and a single carer in the community can therefore infect potentially hundreds of people without even knowing that they're carrying COVID. So, can we have a statement on testing policy? Improved test and trace, we've been told, is key if we're to reduce the risk of a second wave; specifically, I'd like a statement that addresses this point about testing asymptomatic workers who come into close contact with the most vulnerable. We've got the spare testing capacity, and we have one chance to prevent a second wave—let's not waste that chance.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for raising this issue, and I do know that the Minister for health has been working on the next iteration of the testing strategy, and that there will be an announcement and publication along those lines very shortly. And, obviously, he will have heard what you've said in terms of community-based carers and how we ensure that tests are available for all of those people who would require them and benefit from them.

Alun Davies AC: I think, business Minister, we've all been very grateful to Ministers who have taken the time to make a series of public statements on what their response has been to the developing coronavirus crisis, and I think the communications of Welsh Government have been absolutely first class. The way that Ministers have enabled scrutiny to take place, both within the public arena and here, has been absolutely beyond comparison, particularly with the chaos on the other end of the M4. However, there are certain statements that should be made to this place first, and the need for parliamentary scrutiny is different to the need for public scrutiny. And particularly where statements are made that will involve changes to the law and changes to rates of taxation, they should be made to this place before they're made in the public environment, to enable that scrutiny to take place. So, I would seek the support of the Presiding Officer as well in these matters, protecting the rights of this Parliament, and of the Government in ensuring that statements are made to this place, and that the inevitable and correct public scrutiny that Ministers face can do so as well, but I don't believe it should happen instead of parliamentary scrutiny, and so I hope the Government will respond positively to that.
At the same, we also know that we are meeting twice over the summer months in order to take some decisions with regard to legislation; I strongly support the recall of this place to do that work. But I'm also aware, and I saw a story in the Financial Times on the weekend, that the United Kingdom Government is railroading legislation that could severely constrain the powers of this place and our right to exercise those powers. I hope that the Welsh Government and the Presiding Office will look favourably at any Member who seeks to raise these matters when we meet during August in order to deal with coronavirus regulations, because I do believe the threats from the United Kingdom Governmentto the powers that the Welsh people have sought to rest in this place are not something that we should wait to address. The right of this place to articulate its view should be given an opportunity during the summer months, if that is necessary.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Alun Davies certainly for his opening remarks, in terms of the way in which the Welsh Government has embraced scrutiny and has been as open and transparent as possible throughout the crisis.
I take on board his criticism regarding the recent statement on land transaction tax. The only thing I will say is that the pace of decision making has been extraordinary, and the number of decisions that are taken on a daily basis is extraordinary. Of course, we only have very limited time in the Chamber, but I take on board the criticism that he's made, and I do share his concerns about the threat to devolution and to the powers of the Senedd in terms of the way in which the UK Government has sought to move forward through this crisis, but then also in terms of as we approach our exit, or as we approach the end of the year with the potential crashing out and a 'no deal' Brexit. So, there are, clearly, large areas of concern that we share there.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Business manager, I would like to understand why the Government haven't tabled a statement today from the health Minister, who will be making, as I understand it, through the Government press conference, an announcement on the new testing regime that the Government are bringing forward. I did raise it with the First Minister, but it should be on the floor of the Chamber that the health Minister is making this statement and not from the comfort of the lectern in Cathays Park. It's just not good enough that such statements are being made from Cathays Park at 12:30, when I am currently advised on the internet that he will be talking about the testing regime, and we, as Members, are sitting here in the bay listening to other matters. This is a key part of making sure that there isn't a second spike or a second outbreak through the Government's programme, and to date the testing regime has failed miserably, as the figures I put to the First Minister show. Can you enlighten me as to why the health Minister is not making a statement to the Senedd, as opposed to the press conference in Cathays Park?
Secondly, can I seek clarity from you or someone within Government as to the guidance about marriages? In August, you will be able to get married in a registry office or a church, but, regrettably, you will not be able to get married at another venue that, traditionally, has been licensed for a wedding ceremony. I do believe that this is an anomaly, and I'd be grateful if the Government could look at this, because in my own South Wales Central area I have businesses that have converted properties to become marriage venues, yet they won't be able to undertake the ceremony at the facilities in which they've invested considerable sums of money. So, could I seek clarity as to why it is only registry offices and churches that will be able to perform weddings, as opposed to other venues that, traditionally, have been licensed to undertake such a ceremony?

Rebecca Evans AC: On Andrew R.T. Davies's first point, I would just refer him to the answer that I have just given to Alun Davies, who raised a similar concern. But, in terms of the marriage ceremonies, I can reassure you that the Welsh Government is looking closely at the issue of how we can open up those other venues that are not registry offices or places of worship. As soon as we are able to say more on that, I can assure you that we will.

Siân Gwenllian AC: May I ask for a statement on funding for the arts? There are huge concerns that have been raised about the £59 million that was announced and broadly reported last week. It appears now that this sum of money is not available, and there's nothing near that sum available for the arts sector in Wales after all. We need clarity. First of all, how much money will be available for the sector? Secondly, how will any new funding be distributed across the arts? It's extremely disappointing that we don't have that clarity, and I would appreciate an early statement from the Government, please.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, a great deal of work is going on in this particular area, and I know that my colleague the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language yesterday met with the Arts Council of Wales, which has been putting together a proposal, which would come forward, then, to Welsh Government with a view to drawing down some funding from the COVID reserve that we've established. I haven't yet seen that proposal, but, again, as soon as we do have a proposal we will seek to make an early decision in order to provide a statement with the clarity on the decisions that have been made.

Lynne Neagle AC: Minister, I would associate myself with the remarks made by Alun Davies earlier. Last week, we saw £470 million of health board debts written off announced in a press conference and, as an Assembly Member representing a health board that has always operated in the black in one of the poorest parts of Wales, I would have liked the opportunity to scrutinise that.
However, my main reason for speaking today is to ask for a statement on the ongoing impact of lockdown on those living with dementia. Last week, the cross-party group heard from people living with dementia about the immense and heartbreaking impact that lockdown has had on their lives. It was sobering, it was hard hitting and it was very upsetting. I'd like to ask for a statement, as I've highlighted previously with the First Minister the high numbers of people dying from dementia not from COVID during lockdown. There are also continued concerns about lack of access to memory clinic assessments going forward, and it is crucial that that work is addressed as a matter of urgency. So, I'd like to call for that written statement, a detailed statement, as a matter of urgency. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Okay, thank you. And again, I note the opening remarks that you made, and obviously I'll be having some further discussions with colleagues about this particular issue. But in terms of your request for a statement on dementia, I think the health Minister will have heard that particular request, and I'm sure that he'll be keen to share what the Welsh Government has been doing to support people with dementia through what's been an incredibly difficult time, and potentially especially more so for people who are living with dementia and their families. So, I will liaise with the health Minister on that particular issue.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would like to endorse the request for the statement with regard to the testing of our social care workers and domiciliary care providers providing care in the community, in other words in their own homes. Last month, after several weeks of the care home testing debacle here in Wales, I asked the health Minister as to what steps they were taking to test those going into vulnerable people's homes. He agreed with my concerns and actually acknowledged that the WLGA have raised issues also. I've heard nothing since. So, I would like to endorse Leanne Wood's comments: can we have a detailed statement? I want to be advised of how many of those delivering care to our most vulnerable in their own homes have actually yet received a COVID-19 test. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Again, I just would refer you to the answer that I gave to Leanne Wood in relation to the new testing strategy. But also, I will be sure after this session today to have that conversation with the health Minister with regard to the concerns that both you and Leanne Wood have raised regarding people who are working in the social care sector but are doing it within people's homes, so providing domiciliary care and other forms of support within the community.

Neil McEvoy AC: I'd like a statement on the testing of the nuclear mud from Hinkley Point nuclear power station, or the lack of it, really. We heard last week that an expert panel had been set up without a process of public application. I'm really concerned that some key experts in nuclear physics—scientists—have been left out of that group, which is a concern. But the very simple statement I want is, simply, if scientists are saying that the mud is contaminated with plutonium—they say they're convinced it's contaminated—why on earth isn't the Government insisting on the mud being tested for plutonium? It beggars belief. A very simple statement.

Rebecca Evans AC: Could I ask you to write to the Minister with that concern and with your suggestions of people who might have something useful to contribute to this debate?

Joyce Watson AC: I would like a statement about the new street layouts being introduced across Wales to support social distancing and rightly revitalising our town centres and helping us to socialise once again. But many of those layouts will present challenges to people with sight loss and they should, in my opinion, be equality impact assessed to ensure that they don't exclude the most vulnerable of people. The Royal National Institute of Blind People has proposed a coronavirus code of courtesy, and that, indeed, would help us all to develop mutual respect, to share spaces safely in what will now become the new normal. They and other charities are calling for the Welsh Government to raise public awareness of the challenge that social distancing will pose for disabled people.
I want to also, at the same time, thank all those people in local authority areas who've worked so hard to reorganise the streets in, very often, their own time, and the charities that have been involved in giving that advice. But what's imperative here is that the Government gives a clear statement about the respect agenda for all.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Joyce Watson for raising that and I agree completely with everything that she has said. The RNIB work, for example, is really important in terms of ensuring that, when we consider how we refocus the public realm, we do so in a way that is inclusive and doesn't cause unnecessary and additional trouble for people who are disabled, whether it be through visual impairment or other ways in which people become disabled, by the society that is around them. I think it really reminds us, doesn't it, of the importance of the social model of disability and the importance of adapting our society to ensure that everybody can play their part and do so in an inclusive way.
I know that the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip has taken a particular interest in this in terms of the advice that she is receiving and seeking from the equality sector, which can help ensure that, when we do adapt to the new normal, it's a new normal that is inclusive.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales

The next item is questions to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Improvements to the M4

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s plans for future improvements to the M4 around the Brynglas Tunnels area? OQ55468

Ken Skates AC: Yes, of course. We've accepted the first round of recommendations from the South East Wales Transport Commission and we're now undertaking the relevant statutory procedures to implement them. We also look forward to receiving further recommendations from the commission this year.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the Minister for his answer. I'm sure that the residents of Newport will be pleased to see further progress in this area, and a proposal that will alleviate the congestion in the area while at the same time respecting the Senedd's commitment to reducing our carbon output.
Now, Minister, last week, Boris Johnson said that his UK Government intends to allow a bypass to be built over the Gwent levels. The decision about the bypass is a devolved matter and the Welsh Government, as you will know, took the decision last year that it would not be built on cost and environment grounds, following years of debate in this Senedd Chamber. It's perfectly clear to me that the UK Government would not be able to change this decision without introducing legislation in Westminster, overturning the relevant sections of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Could you tell me, Minister, what is the Welsh Government's analysis of the Prime Minister's threat? Do you think that he is serious about dismantling devolution, or is it your view that he was simply speaking off the cuff, displaying his famed ignorance one again? And can you give me an assurance that, were the UK Government to attempt to do this, the Welsh Government would be ready and willing to take the UK Government to the Supreme Court to prevent them from overturning Welsh democracy through diktat?

Ken Skates AC: Well, I can assure the Member of the latter and I feel that it was nothing more than a political stunt. If the Prime Minister really does have £2 billion to spend on Welsh infrastructure, then he's welcome to do so and to do so swiftly; spending that money on rail infrastructure in the south, in mid Wales and in north Wales, making sure that we see electrified main lines, making sure that we see enhanced rail services to places like Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, andmaking sure that we see an improvement on the Wrexham to Bidston line. If he has £2 billion to spend in Wales, he can send it here to Cardiff Bay and we will spend it across the whole of Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Transport Minister, can you hear me?

Carry on. We can hear you.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Okay, good. Thank you. Sorry, Llywydd. Transport Minister, I agreed with Paul Davies earlier that Welsh businesses of all sizes, now more than ever post lockdown, need all the support that they can get from this Welsh Government. I strongly believe that decent transport infrastructure is key to revive an economy. Therefore, to revive our economy in south Wales, do you not agree that unclogging the main artery into south Wales and delivering on an M4 relief road would provide the much needed lifeblood to our Welsh businesses and tourism that it so desperately needs?
Our British Prime Minister did recognise the real need for the relief road. Your Welsh Labour MP for Newport West recognises the need for it. It was in your own Labour manifesto to deliver it. Our UK Prime Minister's even offered financial assistance to you to build it as it's been that necessary for our economy. Yes, it's a devolved decision, but isn't it time that maybe, just maybe, you actually deliver on your very own manifesto commitment that will encourage businesses to invest here, this side of the border, and would finally open up south Wales for business?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Laura Anne Jones for her question and welcome her to the Senedd? It's a pleasure to see her and to accept her first question regarding transport. I can assure the Member that we are awaiting the cheque from the Prime Minister—that £2 billion. When we receive it, we will spend it on transport infrastructure, making good the historic underinvestment, in particular on rail infrastructure, which is the direct responsibility of the Prime Minister, and I would invite the Prime Minister to, in a very humble way, accept that historic underfunding of rail infrastructure.
Now, in terms of the M4, I don't think a single Member in this Chamber would disagree with what you said about the need to ensure that congestion is addressed, and that's why we are taking forward the initial recommendations of the commission. I'd like to place on record, Llywydd, my thanks to Lord Burns for leading this important piece of work. Work is beginning, in the autumn, on the average speed control mechanisms along the M4 between junctions 24 and 28. Work has already begun on the recommendation that concerns additional lane guidance, and we have already recruited the additional traffic officers. Their new vehicles will be delivered in August.

Jayne Bryant AC: While many people across Wales and Westminster have their view on the Brynglas tunnels, it's my constituents who live with the pollution and congestion. Local traffic is not the main cause of this, but it's the people of Newport who are the ones who bear the brunt. Can the Minister ensure that when the south-east Wales transport commission produces its much-anticipated final report later this year, the Welsh Government will act on the findings to resolve this long-standing issue once and for all?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jayne Bryant for her question? First of all, in terms of air quality, it's a fact that air pollution is the largest environmental threat to public health in Newport and, indeed, beyond, and we'll be publishing our clean air plan for Wales very soon. The south-east Wales transport commission will be publishing their next report tomorrow, and I'm looking forward to reading that report, and we're also eagerly awaiting the final report later this year. I can assure the Member that we look forward to acting on appropriate recommendations that are contained within that report to alleviate congestion in and around Newport.

Work-based Learning

Suzy Davies AC: 2. What support is the Welsh Government offering to apprentices and those taking part in work-based learning whose placements have been affected by COVID-19? OQ55451

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Suzy Davies for her question and say that apprenticeship providers have been supported throughout the March to July period on the basis of average payments? Providers have developed, I'm pleased to say, online learning modules to ensure apprentices are able to continue to progress through their learning. We've also worked with learning providers and stakeholders to develop a published COVID-19 resilience plan for the post-16 sector.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that answer. I notice you didn't mention new apprentices particularly, because they are going to be necessary to help the economy of Wales recover. But, as you say, we need to keep in mind our existing apprentices. I don't know what the position is in Wales at the moment. Are we looking at half our construction apprentices being furloughed, for example, as they are in England? How is the Welsh Government ensuring that existing apprentices are able to complete their apprenticeships rather than face redundancy? Perhaps some detail on that would be great. And how are they helping employers retain that talent on completion? Specifically, what are you doing to make sure that apprenticeships aren't going to be more inflexible than they currently are?

Ken Skates AC: Well, we're doing all we can to ensure that apprentices continue through their frameworks, even in these incredibly difficult times, and, if I can use one example, I'd point to Airbus, where we've been able to ensure that the apprenticeship scheme continues as planned, although, of course, start dates have been staggered due to reduced class sizes. But, we're also looking at a funding package to extend the training of year 3.
Now, in terms of redundant apprentices, providers should use their best endeavours to ensure that they find alternative employment for apprentices who are made redundant. We'll be monitoring, as you can imagine, and analysing data regarding apprenticeship redundancies, and we will consider any interventions and support that are required. The Member will be aware that I announced an additional £40 million from the economic resilience fund to help support people in terms of training, employability, and, of course, we'll be looking to that fund to support redundant apprentices in finding new opportunities to complete their training. I can assure the Member that we remain on target to create 100,000 all-age, high-quality apprenticeships during this Assembly term, and that is a pledge that we are proud to be able to commit to.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, can I thank you personally for your involvement and this Welsh Labour Government's involvement, because you've both been big supporters of the apprenticeship scheme? I know from experience how valued they are. You're right—it is now more important than ever before that we continue to support companies within north-east Wales to continue to provide apprenticeships and further training opportunities to keep as many skills in our region as possible. What financial support can you offer to make this happen?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jack Sargeant for his question and restate my commitment to the apprenticeship programme? I'm pleased to say that we have one of the highest success rates anywhere in Europe concerning our apprenticeship provision in terms of apprentices going on to secure sustainable employment. That demonstrates the value of our system. We have not watered down or devalued the apprenticeship programme in Wales. Now, obviously, there will be many pressures on budgets as restrictions are lifted due to the Welsh Government's action in combating COVID-19, but we'll focus our apprenticeship investment in those areas of the economy that will best support the recovery. Officials are currently considering further measures to aid recovery and to support apprentices.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Llywydd. My concern, Minister, is that Wales is unfortunately heading for a deeper recession. I certainly think we need to have trust in our businesses when it comes to implementing safe social distancing and reopening their premises to get the economy moving again. I wonder if you could let me know what assessment has been produced in regard to the slower approach of reopening the economy that the Welsh Government has overseen.

Ken Skates AC: I'd like to thank the Member for his question, and if I can just say, first of all, that our more cautious approach in Wales has led to, as the First Minister has recently said, a positivity rate of just 0.25 per cent for all of those tests that are currently taking place. Compare that to Blackburn, where the rate is 7 per cent,28 times higher. I'd ask any business in Wales, 'Would you prefer to be operating right now here or in Blackburn?' Our cautious approach is designed to prevent dangerous, damaging spikes and a second wave. That's why we've been cautious, that's why we have ensured that the long-term interests of the economy and businesses—the 260,000 businesses within Wales—are at the heart of our decision-making process.

Russell George AC: I thank you for your answer, Minister. Of course, this is not only about protecting public health, but it's also about protecting people's lives and livelihoods as well. In my inbox, you will find it's currently bursting with people telling me how regrettable it is that UK hasn't moved with the same approach across the UK, and this has caused, sadly, some unnecessary confusion that has put Welsh businesses at a disadvantage. Last week, the First Minister announced that indoor tourist attractions can open, but there doesn't seem to be much clarity on what can open and what needs to stay shut. So, I would be grateful if you could provide some clarity on that area today. In my view, there's absolutely no reason why a business shouldn't be able to reopen immediately, providing they do so with social distancing regulations and hygiene guidance in place.
It's also taken the Welsh Government over a week to make any announcement in regard to supporting the housing market by removing the burden of land transaction tax, but the announcement is nowhere near as generous as the UK Government has outlined for properties across the border. Minister, can you and the Finance Minister commit today to looking seriously at the tax levers that you have responsibility for, and lower or abolish any tax that stifles aspiration and, in doing that, give the economy a boost that it needs with immediate effect?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for those questions? First of all, as to the tax level before we decided to increase the threshold, the threshold was the highest in any part of the UK, benefiting thousands of people who were purchasing properties who would not receive the same sort of support across the border in England or elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The decision that was announced by the business Minister and finance Minister yesterday will enable us to build thousands of additional social houses, enabling people who are currently homeless to have a roof over their head, and it's absolutely right that we do all we can as we build back better to create a more equal economy and a more equal society. We make no apologies for the decisions we are taking to empower and enable people to strive to be as good as they possibly can be in terms of their employment prospects.
Now, I can say to the Member that, contained within the wales.gov pages on coronavirus regulations is a comprehensive frequently asked questions section, and that provides all of the detail that might be necessary to businesses that are contacting, I know, not just Russell George, but many other Members, asking for answers in regard to those regulations. I would point every Member to those frequently asked questions pages.
We plan and then announce policy in Wales. We don't announce what we intend to do and then try to plan afterwards. We do not wish to play policy swingball in Wales, creating uncertainty, as has been created in England. When we make an announcement, we wish to stick to it.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. I wonder if you could commit to a date when the remainder of the economy can reopen. My question would be why stick so rigidly to the three-week reviews. If it's right to make a change now, then do it now. When announcements are made, I would appreciate it if clarity could be attached to those announcements. For example, I mentioned indoor tourist attractions. Andrew R.T. Davies in his comment today on the business statement mentioned wedding venues, an issue also raised with me. There doesn't seem to be that clear guidance available. I appreciate, Minister, you've pointed us to the frequently asked questions document on the Welsh Government's website. I often use that, and that's appreciated and that's helpful, but it doesn't always give—often it doesn't give—the clarity that businesses need. Ultimately, I would like announcements to be made with clear guidance attached to them so that my inbox isn't full, and social media isn't full, of those questions that follow. I appreciate you may say you've spoken to the industry, Minister, in putting guidance forward, but not all businesses are members of associations and trade bodies. So, announcements do need to be made with guidance attached and also communicated well to those particular sectors.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member and assure him that there are dozens of guidance documents now available on the Government website? They are available for different types of workplaces. They are available for employers as well as for citizens, particularly for passengers on public transport. We've attempted to make the guidance as clear and as comprehensive as possible, and it is fully accessible to anybody wishing to seek guidance, whether they operate a business or whether they are accessing one.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, you will be aware that there are hospitality businesses who at present do not have access to outdoor spaces to operate, and you'll also be aware of the steps that are being taken by local authorities to open up our public spaces to enable more businesses to trade outside, predominantly hospitality businesses. It is, of course, possible to do that in the short term by using exemptions to regulations that local authorities can use themselves, but the Minister will be aware that there is a very complex pattern of regulations, planning and highways issues that local authorities need to take into account if they wish to open those public spaces for businesses to trade longer term. Taking into account the points made earlier about the need to do that in a way that enables disabled citizens to be able to move about freely, will the Minister work with colleagues to consider using Welsh Government's emergency legislative powers to suspend some of that pattern of regulation, and to make it easier for local authorities, if they wish to do so, to permit hospitality and other businesses to trade outdoors longer term?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I'll commit to doing just that. We wish to ensure that local authorities can make timely decisions and make appropriate changes to the public realm to enable businesses to operate in a viable way, even during these incredibly difficult times. And I can assure the Member that we hope to be able to enable businesses within the hospitality sector to open indoors from 3 August, provided we still have coronavirus under full control.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer. I think that he would agree with me that those outdoor spaces will continue to be useful to businesses, though; because of social distancing, they will be able to serve fewer customers indoors and that has an effect on their profit.
If I may turn now to the matter of those businesses that have not yet been able to receive support either from the Welsh Government or the UK Government, taking into account the point the Minister has made in the past that it may not be possible to help everyone. He will be aware that the start-up bursary fund has been very well received and subscribed to. The Minister in the past has made reference to the possibility of a hardship fund for those businesses—relatively small numbers, hopefully—that simply haven't been able to be helped elsewhere. But there seems to be some confusion now about whether he still intends to do that.
So, can I ask the Minister today whether the possibility of a hardship fund is still under consideration for that relatively small number of businesses who haven't yet been able to secure help? I'm sure that he would agree with me that while those businesses may not be hugely significant in terms of the economy overall, they are very significant to the business owners and the people who work in them, and the communities in which they operate.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Helen Mary Jones and say that we are certainly open to considering a hardship fund? It will be dependent on our assessment of the economic resilience fund, the latest phase of that particular intervention, but also it will be dependent on the UK Government's response to the UK Treasury select committee's recommendations, which concern the gaps that have been exposed through UK Government support. And we'll also be assessing the self-employment support scheme, because it does appear that many of those individuals that are being pointed to Welsh Government for advice are actually eligible for the self-employment support scheme.
Data just published today at 9.30 a.m. shows that 16 per cent of people who are eligible for the self-employment support scheme in Wales have not yet made an application. That amounts to tens of thousands of self-employed people who, I fear, perhaps are not aware that they are eligible for that important support scheme and instead are looking, first and foremost, to Welsh Government. But we have always been clear that the economic resilience fund is designed to complement, not duplicate, UK Government interventions. So, I would urge anybody who is self-employed to look first and foremost at the self-employment support scheme, and to apply as soon as possible, because we estimate that there could be around 30,000 people who are yet to benefit from that scheme.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer, and I trust that Business Wales is providing that advice to self-employed people who contact them. I know efforts are being made to make the contact with businesses as simple as possible, but it can still be daunting. The Minister in his answer refers to the role of the UK Government in supporting business to deal with this crisis, and I think although there are faults with the schemes, we've all been grateful for those. But does the Minister share my frustration with the situation as it stands that the Welsh Government has to depend so much on the UK Government to respond appropriately to the needs of our businesses and our communities? Does the Minister ever look at the kind of fiscal autonomy that is enjoyed by some independent nations that would enable him and his ministerial colleagues to borrow and spend in ways that best suit our communities, rather than having to depend on a larger neighbour at the other end of the M4, who does not always fully understand the impact of their actions on our communities, and may not always share the priorities of this Welsh Government, this Parliament and this nation?

Ken Skates AC: Well, I'd agree with the Member entirely, and the finance Minister has spoken on numerous occasions now about how we would be able to potentially do more if we had additional powers over borrowing and greater scope to intervene. I think what coronavirus has demonstrated is that the Welsh Government, even with its limited financial resources, has been able to make a huge difference to businesses. We estimate that something in the order of 34 per cent of businesses in Wales have sought support from Welsh Government or UK Government. The comparison with England speaks volumes; the figure across the border is just 14 per cent. That demonstrates the role that this Welsh Government has had in successfully hibernating businesses during the worst of coronavirus, and saving tens upon tens of thousands of jobs.

The Brexit Party spokesperson is not present, and therefore I'll move on to question 3—Mark Isherwood.

Supporting Businesses to Reopen

Mark Isherwood AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting businesses in North Wales to reopen as a result of the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55446

Ken Skates AC: We're doing everything possible to support businesses as they gradually reopen. We're providing comprehensive advice, guidance and support through our Business Wales service and the Welsh Government website. We've also supported almost 2,000 north Wales businesses through the first round of our economic resilience fund, totalling more than £33 million.

Mark Isherwood AC: Wedding businesspeople tell me time is very quickly running out for wedding venues and the wedding industry as a whole. In a survey of Welsh wedding venues, 86 per cent said that clarity and a roadmap or timetable was of utmost importance to the survival of their business. Virtually every other sector has been given permission to open up, and large indoor wedding celebrations are allowed throughout most of Europe, and now even Northern Ireland. They said that without an announcement very quickly the situation for many venues will be irrecoverable. They said, 'I find the apparent lack of interest in the wedding industry in Wales absolutely extraordinary' and they said, 'We just don't have the time left to talk endlessly with no result.' There are so many jobs and businesses on the line, and yet with the correct management and messaging, they could all so easily be saved. How do you respond to them?

Ken Skates AC: I'd say to the Member that we are acutely aware of the difficulties facing wedding venues, and I'd refer the Member to comments made by the finance Minister, the business Minister, just earlier. But I would also say to the Member that, as a direct result of having a Welsh Government, and having a Wales-only economic resilience fund, tens of millions of pounds—approximately £55 million, to be accurate—has been applied for by businesses in north Wales. In terms of hospitality businesses, more than £5.5 million has been awarded to hundreds of businesses in north Wales that simply would not have been able to get that support if they existed in England. We are going above and beyond what the UK Government is doing in England.

Safety of Staff on Public Transport

Lynne Neagle AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the safety of staff on public transport? OQ55465

Lee Waters AC: [Inaudible.]—to scale up public transport, Llywydd, the safety and well-being of all staff and passengers remains our priority. On 8 July, we updated our guidance for operators, helping them to understand how to provide safer workplaces and services for workers and passengers.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister. I was very pleased to hear the announcement from the First Minister on Monday that face coverings will become compulsory on public transport from the end of July. I hope that we will extend that to shop workers as soon as possible, personally. It was a very welcome announcement, it was something I'd asked for, it was something trade unions like Unite the Union had campaigned hard for. But of course we recognise too that it is not a silver bullet on its own, and that it is vital that measures like hand washing et cetera go along with the wearing of those face coverings. What steps will the Government take to ensure that there is a really clear understanding of the public in relation to not just wearing face coverings but the importance of taking other steps to protect themselves and other Welsh citizens? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, thank you for that. I acknowledge that Lynne Neagle has been calling for this move for some time, but as the First Minister has set out in some detail earlier, these are difficult judgments and nuanced judgments with a balance of risks. We've been liaising closely with the trade unions, with the operators and with equality groups to work through the detail of this and how to make it operational, because as buses become more heavily used, it's going to be impossible to keep the 2m guidance being observed on buses. So, we're then looking to put in place a series of mitigation measures, including engineering changes, hand washing, sanitiseravailability and so on, as well as face coverings. The face coverings alone, as Lynne Neagle acknowledges, is not a silver bullet, as she puts it. So, we've been working hard with the operators to make sure that awareness is raised about the package of things that need to be done to keep people as safe as we can.

Nick Ramsay AC: Minister, we've known for a long time that the risks associated with air travel are lower, because of the air filtering systems that planes are fitted with, and it looks now as though that sort of technology might be more widely available for other transport. Own Buses in Warrington is thought to be the first bus company in the world to install air cleaning devices across its entire fleet in order to protect its drivers from the risk of airborne transmission of COVID-19. Eighty-six AirBubbl air cleaning devices have been fitted, which filter more than 95 per cent of airborne viruses and contaminated particulates out of the air. It strikes me, Minister, that this is the sort of innovation that would help with dealing with the current pandemic, but is also a good innovation, moving forward, for its own sake anyway. So, is this the sort of technology that perhaps the Welsh Government could look at encouraging buses and perhaps other forms of public transport to adopt moving forward, to make sure that, yes, staff and drivers are protected, but also that it's as clean an environment as possible for the passengers on public transport?

Lee Waters AC: Well, certainly we're interested in innovations and we'll be keen to look in detail at this example, and there are more low-tech innovations closer to home that have been developed. Edwards Coaches, for example, have been experimenting with plastic shields on their buses to try and get more passengers safely on them. And we're looking at all of these. As ever, the economics of the bus industry is challenging for these kinds of investments and we've been struggling with the operators to find a way to allow them to ramp up services with existing vehicles, given how fragile their business model is, how dependent they are on public subsidy, and how to balance the extra investment needed to put these measures in with their ability to trade as businesses.

Swansea Bay and Western Valleys Metro

Dai Lloyd AC: 5. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddatblygu metro Bae Abertawe a chymoedd y gorllewin? OQ55452

The Deputy Minister to respond.

Lee Waters AC: Yes, indeed. We have been funding Swansea Council, Llywydd, to develop, with the region, a package of proposals to develop a south Wales metro. We have funded that to the tune of some £2 million in the last few years, and we're now looking to accelerate that by involving Transport for Wales to take forward the next stage.

Dai Lloyd AC: Minister, development of a metro in Swansea bay and the western Valleys is vital in terms of reducing travel times and congestion in and around Swansea, and in terms of generating economic development in our Valleys communities. However, despite funding for a feasibility study being agreed in 2017, we have received very little in the way of Welsh Government updates on this scheme. Can you outline when you expect the feasibility study to be made public, and when you expect to make a decision on the scheme? And do you agree that it is important that light rail options in areas such as the Swansea and Amman valleys should form part of that feasibility work?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I share the Member's interest in getting this proposal accelerated. I've had a long interest in developing a Swansea bay metro and I am frustrated at the progress to date. It's one the reasons why we've asked Transport for Wales, as part of the remit letter, to take a role in developing these proposals forward. There has, as I say, been work going on within the region by the local authorities themselves, and they have developed an initial package of measures, including new long-distance and local metro rail services along the currently under-utilised Swansea district line, which would offer reduced journey times from west Wales to Swansea and Cardiff and across the border.
The new metro service would, via new rail infrastructure and a number of new stations and strategic park-and-ride sites, connect Swansea, Neath and Llanelli together better. We're also, as part of it, looking at enhancing the expanding bus services in the Swansea bay region. And I agree with Dai Lloyd that that also needs to include light rail. Clearly, the Swansea bay context is different from the central Valleys metro context, where there already is far greater rail coverage and infrastructure. And to make a metro meaningful as a turn-up-and-go service in the south-west would need to go beyond looking at heavy rail, and a mixture of light rail, bus rapid transport, active travel and bus prioritisation measures.

Suzy Davies AC: The impetus for the Swansea bay metro came from repeated calls in this Chamber for a transport system underpinning the city deal, and I'm pleased now that Transport for Wales is working with Welsh Government and local authorities to develop plans, particularly for that faster service to the west and south Wales.
I've made the case before that a parkway would certainly support that later aim as well as improve the opportunities for active travel and the type of rail that Dai Lloyd was talking about. I accept that this is a devolved matter, but finance from the UK Government is on the table for a parkway, so wouldn't it be sensible for Transport for Wales and the other partners to include the UK Government in—[Inaudible.]—because they are partners in the city deal, after all, rather than, perhaps, just present them with a bill at the end or claim lack of investment?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think, seeing a parkway at Felindre as an active travel measure is a bit of a stretch, Llywydd, but, certainly, as part of a broader network, it would have a benefit, and we've said that all along. What we don't want is to create a piece of infrastructure that is not linked in to a broader network. And certainly, Alun Cairns, when he was Welsh Secretary, was very keen in playing political games, in trying to present this as an attractive option, but, of course, without any of the thinking about how the services should be run. It's one thing providing funding for infrastructure, but unless you've got trains to run on it, it's pretty meaningless, and unless it links into Swansea city centre rather than bypassing the city centre and the other onward journeys, it would also make very little sense.
Now, I agree with Suzy Davies—as part of moving the conversation in the region from a city deal back to a city region, so it takes a more coherent approach rather than simply administrating a grant-funding pot, then transport does need to form of that vision. And I met, along with David T.C. Davies, the main representatives of the city deal last week.
The way the city deal has been set up by the UK Government is different from the way that the Cardiff city deal has been set up. It's about administrating a series of projects rather than taking a broader, pooled approach, which the Cardiff one has a greater flexibility for. So, we'd certainly be interested in a conversation about changing that if there was an appetite to do it. But, again, I emphasise, let's not overly focus on the city deal—that's a grant-funding mechanism—let's focus on the city region. Let's not just focus on Felindre as a park-and-ride, let's focus on a coherent, integrated network that links up all the pieces, rather than a nice little press release for one constituency the Conservative are hoping to target.

Road and Rail Congestion

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for alleviating road and rail congestion in Pencoed? OQ55440

Ken Skates AC: Yes, of course. We've previously awarded Bridgend council £300,000 in local transport grants to appraise options inPencoed. This scheme would contribute greatly towards alleviating road and rail congestion in Pencoed and in the surrounding areas.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for that response and for the continuing Welsh Government support and interest within this project. He'll be pleased to know that the meetings, chaired by myself and Chris Elmore MP, which bring together Network Rail, TfW, Bridgend County Borough Council, Welsh Government interest, but also the local town council, who have been a major champion of this, and along with an observer from the Secretary of State's office as well—. The secret of this is bringing all those parties together to unlock the split that currently goes right through the centre of Pencoed as a town and stymies both social and economic development.
So, in raising this question, I'm seeking the continued support of Welsh Government, who've helped to drive this forward with the feasibility study. And at the last meeting, the Minister will be pleased to know that we saw the second phase of that initial study completed, and it's pointing us in the right direction, but we will never get this done unless we also have Department for Transport and UK Government funded into it as well. So, will he also add his shoulder to that in his discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales and UK Ministers?

Ken Skates AC: Well, most certainly I will, and I'd like to thank Huw again for the question about this important project, which could make a huge difference in terms of connectivity and speedy transportation between communities in and around his constituency. We're continuing to engage, as I know the Member is aware, with Network Rail on taking forward this scheme. We've encouraged Network Rail to include the project on the list of proposals for funding under the Network Rail DfT light scheme. We've allocated funding, I'm pleased to be able to say, totalling more than £5 million in this financial year for the metro plus schemes, and I understand that Bridgend council will be progressing work through this funding opportunity. But as the Member has stated, rail infrastructure outside of the core Valleys lines is not devolved and still remains the responsibility of UK Government. So, it's absolutely vital that the UK Government invests in this area as it attempts to level up. Removing the level crossing at Pencoed would make a very significant difference indeed.

Social Distancing Guidelines

Andrew RT Davies AC: 7. In light of COVID-19, will the Minister make a statement on the impact of social-distancing guidelines on businesses in South Wales Central? OQ55442

Ken Skates AC: Well, whilst we recognise that the coronavirus pandemic is both a public health and an economic emergency, public health comes first. The worst thing that could happen to the economy is a second spike, which is why any rational approach has to be cautious. We'll consult with businesses and with trade unions to ensure that our approach is proportionate and fair to businesses and to workers.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. I appreciate public health needs to always come first and people's well-being safeguarded, but many businesses have come to me pointing out other countries' experiences and the World Health Organization's advice that 1m is an acceptable social distance. Here in Wales, we have 2m. What discussions within Government have now being undertaken to see where the line should be drawn, because businesses that are reopening are investing heavily in a 2m rule and obviously would have to reinvest if that was to change in the immediate future?

Ken Skates AC: And that's precisely what happened across the border, and we would not wish to see businesses waste valuable resources on installing physical barriers, guides and signs that are not necessarily going to be in place for a significant period of time. The regulations are, of course, continuously under review in Wales, but it is absolutely clear that 2m of social distancing provides for better protection that 1m, and so, wherever possible, 2m must be adhered to.
Now, of course, we've already made the statement concerning public transport and I'd say that our cautious approach has been supported by funding to enable businesses to get through the worst of coronavirus, including the economic resilience fund, valued at £0.5 billion. If that had been a UK-wide scheme operated by the UK Government, it would have to have been a £10 billion fund to operate in the same way as the ERF.

Support for Public Transport

David Melding AC: 8. What measures are being taken to support public transport in Wales during the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55448

Lee Waters AC: We've put in place significant packages of financial support for bus and rail operators, as well as funding local authorities to introduce measures to improve safety and conditions for sustainable and active modes.

David Melding AC: Deputy Minister, as I understand it, since the ending of the bus hardship fund, the bus emergency scheme is giving a revenue source to bus operators who obviously are dealing with vastly reduced passenger numbers at the moment, both because of the safety requirements, but also the lack of demand for bus services at the moment. But they are vital services for the long-term health of the economy and also for more active forms of travel and less congestion. So, what is the longer term plan to sustain our bus networks?

Lee Waters AC: I think David Melding rightly identifies the difficulty we face here. The amount of public funding going into bus operators has not reduced. What obviously has reduced, as passengers have stayed away from public transport, is the so-called farebox element of their business model, and that model has come under an immense strain in the face of the coronavirus. Now, we have worked very closely with them and provided significant investment and support in order to keep a core range of services going for key workers, and now we're in the difficult stage where we want to ramp up services, but the social distancing rules restrict the amount of people able to be carried, and obviously there is also suppressed demand because people—and we're seeing this around the world—are more reluctant to use public transport.
We have, as you know, announced flexibility on the number of passengers buses are now allowed to carry, with face masks being recommended and required in order to facilitate that, and we are developing, on a staged basis, our bus emergency scheme with the operators, and we're working with them in exchange for a range of conditions to make sure that we get good value for the money we're putting in and we're able to get some control over the services that are offered and have guarantees around fares and routes. And we look to work with them to flex services, as we see what additional funding we can release.

The UK Chancellor's Summer Economic Update

Dawn Bowden AC: 9. What assessment has the Minister made of the implications for the economy in the south Wales valleys of the UK Chancellor's summer economic update? OQ55458

Ken Skates AC: Whilst the Chancellor's statement included some welcome announcements, it simply does not go far enough to measure up to the scale of the challenges we face. More extensive and far-reaching action is needed to tackle this crisis head on and to build back better.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I think, sadly, history will not look favourably upon the UK Chancellor's recent announcement. I think what our young people were looking for was much-needed investment in their future, and what they ended up with was a half-price pizza. So, would you therefore agree that in places like Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, it's our Welsh Government plans for investment in key infrastructure, like the Heads of the Valleys road and the metro, as well as investing in the skills of our young people and regenerating homes, businesses and town centres, that are the key levers in restoring hope and opportunities to our Valleys communities?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Dawn Bowden for her supplementary question, and say that, first and foremost, regarding some of the statements, the consequentials that the Welsh Government will receive do not amount to £500 million, as announced by the Chancellor, but instead to £12.5 million in consequentials? Now, I do welcome the UK Government's decision to reduce value added tax on the hospitality sector. However, the UK Government still needs to put in place sectoral employment protection schemes for important sectors that will have to remain either closed for a longer period of time or that will suffer a significant loss of revenue because of social distancing. Hospitality and tourism clearly is one of those vital sectors that require support, and I'd have to say, in agreement with the Member, that the 'eat out to help out' scheme certainly falls short of the ambitious response that is needed for this particular sector.
In terms of help for young people and other vulnerable groups, we're developing a comprehensive package of support that will allow people to upskill and to find new employment. We're all ready to throw £40 million at that particular programme. And as the Member has highlighted, the Heads of the Valleys scheme is absolutely vital to the long-term prosperity of the region, and I'm pleased to say that I've recently announced a preferred bidder for section 5 and section 6 of the A465, and I expect the project to deliver around £400 million of direct spend in Wales, so a gross value added boost of around £675 million, and I expect to see £170 million of spending with the local supply chain.
In terms of the touted new deal for Britain, I'm afraid that it represents just 0.25 per cent of GDP. The real deal new deal amounted to 5 per cent of GDP—25 times greater. And whilst the new deal led to the creation of national parks, huge housing programmes, railroads, I'm afraid the new deal announced by the Prime Minister will only see a bridge improved in Sandwell.

I thank the Minister.

4. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition (in respect of his European Transition Minister responsibilities)

The next item is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition in respect of his European Transition Minister responsibilities. And the first question is from Mandy Jones.

Neil McEvoy AC: Presiding Officer, I've been trying to raise a point of order for the last 15 minutes.

Mandy Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. What—

I've called the question; Mandy Jones to ask the question.

Neil McEvoy AC: Fine. I've got a point of order to raise, Llywydd. I've been waiting for 15 minutes.

Well, you'll have to stay waiting. I've called the question. Mandy Jones to ask the question to the Counsel General. Mandy Jones.

Mandy Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. What discussions—

Neil McEvoy AC: I'd like to raise a point—

Brexit

Mandy Jones AC: 1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with members of the UK Government regarding Brexit since his title was changed on 4 March 2020? OQ55462

Jeremy Miles AC: I take every opportunity to stand up for Wales, despite the lack of meaningful engagement from the UK Government. I have attended several meetings with the Paymaster General and a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) on 21 May, and a further committee meeting is scheduled for tomorrow.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I do find it a matter of regret that all Governments in the UK don't seem to be able to work together in these tumultuous times to ensure parity of treatment of all UK citizens wherever they live, and it is depressing that, despite various forums for discussion and debate, despite reports of committees of the Senedd and a real will for a devo-respectful relationship that is inclusive and collaborative, I've read some of your recent articles and I don't find them either constructive or collaborative. Will you take some responsibility for the lack of mutual respect and a workable relationship, and, while I do appreciate it takes two, what more can you, the Welsh Government, and the Senedd do to change this? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'm not sure what articles the Member is referring to, but I would say that I have consistently tried to engage constructively with the UK Government in relation to each of our engagements in relation to the departure from the European Union and the proposed planned departure from the transition period. It has been the top priority of this Government to make sure that, notwithstanding obvious political differences between the Government here and the Government in London, the task of making sure that Wales's interests are well represented and well taken into account in the decisions taken by the UK Government on behalf of the UK has been the guiding principle throughout. We have sought as a Government consistently, not simply to complain, but to make a constructive case for alternatives at every point. Even in circumstances where the prospects of that being well received and affecting the course of direction in Westminster are limited, we have felt it appropriate and the right thing to do on behalf of the people of Wales to make a reasoned, evidence-based case at every point, and to take every possible opportunity to engage with the UK Government. And it is a matter of frustration because, when engagement does work well, it is very productive. We as a Government wish to see more of that.

David Rees AC: Minister, on many occasions before the committee, you've identified the challenges you've faced in actually trying to get the UK Government to come forward with ideas and decisions and to actually work collaboratively with the Welsh Government. Do you therefore join me in regretting the UK Government's approach to this as far as the EU-UK negotiation is concerned, and that there should be more engagement with the Welsh Government, so that collaboration actually works, and not imposition?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I agree with that. The principle ought to be one of collaboration, and it ought to be one that proceeds on the basis of a parity of esteem and parity of participation across all four Governments in the UK. There may be a hierarchy of Parliament under the constitutional theory of the UK, but there actually isn't a hierarchy of Governments, and Governments should be treated as equals in those discussions.
In relation to the negotiations that he refers to specifically, he will know from our discussions in committee that we are very disappointed about the lack of genuine involvement in that, even in so far as they relate to matters that are devolved. But, again, in that context, we, as a Government, have taken every opportunity, and I've written I think 10 or 11 letters to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in recent weeks, making very clear what our position is in relation to those negotiations. But, actually, those should be the topic of discussions at the JMC(EN), which, if it lived up to its terms of reference, would enable that kind of shared participation to take place—it hasn't yet done that.

The Recovery of Welsh Towns

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government planning to support the recovery of Welsh towns following the effects of Covid-19? OQ55467

Jeremy Miles AC: We will have a values-led reconstruction guided by principles of social justice, fair work and environmental sustainability. Towns across Wales will continue to benefit from interventions, building ona range of transforming towns programmes that follow the £90 million further package of support announced in January.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. One does accept, in the circumstances that we face, that it's inevitable that jobs will be lost. But what we are seeing now, and what I've noticed recently, is that we are seeing companies choosing to close sites in rural or coastal towns—the more peripheral communities—and to centralise jobs where there are headquarters, or where they have a greater presence or footprint. In my region alone, Mail Solutions in Llangollen has announced that they are closing the site there and moving the jobs to Telford. We also have Northwood Hygiene Products in Penygroes, near Caernarfon, which is also relocating posts.
Now, the impact of those job losses on those more peripheral communities is relatively worse, in terms of the impact that it has on those communities. So, I want to ask specifically how your strategy and how your approach to economic recovery in the post-COVID period is going to take particular account of that. What are you doing to encourage and to give reassurance to companies that are moving out of those areas to try and actually keep them there?

Jeremy Miles AC: I won't repeat what we've already heard in the Chamber today from the First Minister and the Minister for the economy talking about the interventions that we have proposed and offered to date in the context of a swift response to COVID. But the question that the Member poses is also relevant to the long term, as it highlights. I will refer him to the statement from the Deputy Minister Hannah Blythyn, talking about further investments in towns that are in parts of his region, and the Valleys taskforce in south Wales, which is looking at reprofiling some of the investments there to be able to support towns in that part of Wales too.
Work is ongoing, and has been ongoing, to ensure that we have specific responses to the challenges in town centres across Wales—that is, pressure on the retail sector, shops, and small businesses—and there have been a number of interventions focusing on that, in addition to providing advice on how towns can look at their public areas to support businesses to be able to operate in the post-COVID period. That advice has already been announced.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: As a report by the Centre for Towns has highlighted, many Welsh coastal towns are facing down both short- and long-term effects from COVID-19. Leaving the EU provides an opportunity to boost our struggling coastal towns—for example, the Rt Hon Rishi Sunak MP, Chancellor, is preparing to introduce sweeping tax cuts and an overhaul of planning laws in up to 10 new free ports within a year of the UK becoming fully independent from the EU.
It has been indicated that the UK Government will open the bidding for towns, cities and regions to become free ports in the autumn budget later this year. What steps is the Welsh Government taking in conjunction with the UK Government to help promote coastal towns in north Wales as, indeed, very serious contenders to become free ports after we have left the EU?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think the benefits of free ports are not as the Member, in her question, provides. The unalloyed advocacy of free ports I think needs to be questioned. However, the Government will look at any opportunity to support coastal communities right across Wales, whether they are port towns or not, and actually some of the funding available from the transforming towns funding will be available to coastal towns.
I do recognise the challenge that the Centre for Towns outlined in relation to the impact, in particular on some of our coastal communities, of COVID. I fear I don't quite have her optimism that Brexit provides the opportunity to resolve those questions. I think there are plenty of risks ahead for towns as a consequence of that, unless the UK Government does what it has said it will do all along, which is make sure that we have an economic settlement leaving the transition period that supports the economy. Actually, its current approach to negotiations doesn't suggest that will be possible, but we hope that it may change its approach in order to support exactly the kind of towns that Janet Finch-Saunders in her question refers to.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, business improvement districts are supporting businesses in our town centres at 16 different locations across Wales, including in Aberdare in my own constituency, where a BID was established early this year. I note the statement made by the Welsh Government on 6 May that it will support BIDs in Wales with their running costs for up to three months. In Aberdare, I know this funding has, for example, helped the BID to provide social-distancing floor stickers and COVID-safe checklist posters free of charge to all businesses within the town centre. Moving forward, in what way do you think that BIDs can help our town centres to bounce back, to build better, and to boost the local and foundational economies in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Vikki Howells for that question. I echo her support for the measure to alleviate some of the costs that BIDs have faced over the past three months. BIDs play an important part in sustaining our town centres, and in my own constituency I've been in close contact with them in relation to some of the challenges specifically posed by COVID. Some businesses are able to respond quite nimbly to that, but others obviously will face particular challenges as a consequence of the restrictions that our response to COVID has necessarily brought into effect. As I say, I would encourage BIDs across Wales to take advantage of the safer public spaces guidance that the Welsh Government has issued in order to understand how best to configure town centres in order to maximise the opportunities for those businesses that can take advantage of these increasing easements.
And I think also I'll just refer her to the announcements made today, some of which will affect communities that I'm sure are close to her heart, in relation to support from the Valleys taskforce, but also the interventions that the Deputy Minister Hannah Blythyn has made from the transforming towns funding, which is a reprofiling and a repurposing of that funding in order to enable local adaptations to be made in towns in Wales to cope with post-COVID circumstances.

I'm with you, I'm with you. [Laughter.]

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople—Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. In the media this week, in response to the proposed internal market Bill that emerged from the UK Government, you stated:

Dai Lloyd AC: This will not be tolerated.

Dai Lloyd AC: So, how will you ensure that this Bill, which, essentially, is an attempt by Boris Johnson to take powers away from this Parliament and back to Westminster—how will you ensure that this will not be forced upon Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Dai Lloyd refers to the proposed Green Paper from the United Kingdom Government as regards the internal market across the UK. In principle, we see the sense in having an internal market to help business in Wales succeed in selling across the whole of the UK. But it's not acceptable that the proposal made is one that's created by one part of the United Kingdom and that that should be imposed upon the other Governments.
In other words, there is a better and alternative way of doing that, on the basis of the principles that I alluded to earlier, namely that Governments have parity of discussion as to what should be done in this situation and build on the common frameworks that have been discussed and developed to date. That is a better alternative way of dealing with the situation, and also takes out of the situation the threat to the devolution settlement that is tied into that we have to accept the goods in the market in Wales, even if they don't come up to the standards that Welsh Government, on behalf of the people of Wales, has set.
We would hope, if necessary, to receive support from the Senedd in our opposition to that, if primary legislation on this emanates from the UK Government.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that response. Since the publication of the Welsh Government paper, 'Reforming our Union, Shared Governance in the UK', the UK Government has rejected callsfrom the Welsh Government,the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to extend the Brexit transition period. Also, the UK Government continued with its withdrawal agreement, although the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments refused legislative consent for it. So, are your objectives, as a Welsh Government, set out in that paper, 'Reforming our Union', more or less likely to be implemented now, or is the equality of governance within the UK a pipe dream?

Jeremy Miles AC: I don't accept the term 'pipe dream' and he wouldn't accept it, perhaps, if I were to describe his constitutional aims in that way. So, we must accept that we have different views on the way forward. I don't accept that this is the only way in which the union can work. The whole point of the paper that he describes is that we have an alternative vision of how the union could work better in the interest of Wales.
I accept, certainly, that the structures that we have and the relationships that we have in the way that they are structured at present do not work—they don't. The process of withdrawing from the European Union has highlighted that even more strongly. But the call that we have as a Government is to reform that in a very elementary way, and that paper still illustrates a path towards that. But, it does mean that we need a Westminster Government that is ready to be involved in that process, and ready to deal with the other devolved Governments in a way that reflects those principles.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that, again. Given the substantial majority of the Conservatives in Westminster, it's clear to everyone that Westminster will not lead the way in reforming the union for the better. We are losing powers here, and you, as a Welsh Government, are being ignored time and time again. So, what is your plan? Continue being ignored, and Wales continuing to lose powers? Chlorinated chicken, anyone? If not independence for Wales, what?

Jeremy Miles AC: [Inaudible.]—Westminster under Keir Starmer that is ready to reform the union on the principles that we as a party have held here in Wales for a long time.

Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Will the Minister provide an update on the work he's been doing in relation to his COVID recovery responsibilities?

Jeremy Miles AC: Certainly. I refer the Member to the statement that the Minister for finance and I jointly published yesterday, which gives, I think, a sense of the direction of travel.

Darren Millar AC: Yes, I saw the statement that was published yesterday—no doubt rushed out in advance of your appearance before the Senedd today. Because the reality is that you've made very few appearances in relation to this important role, which, of course, is going to become even more important as time goes on. So, to issue periodic statements that are so distant apart that they are, frankly, like a comet—Halley's comet, perhaps—is unacceptable in my view.
Now, we've heard references in this Chamber today—and I think you've referred to it, also—to the cautious approach that is being taken to reopening Wales by the Welsh Government. But, the reality is that you've thrown caution to the wind as far as our economy is concerned. And you've also thrown caution to the wind in terms of the potential long-term health impacts of your longer lockdown on our economy too. You weren't cautious, either, when it came to the testing of residents in care homes or the staff in care homes, and you have not been cautious in relation to the use of mandatory face coverings, either. So, can you tell us what the economic impact of the longer lockdown is here in Wales, and why the Welsh Government continues to drag its feet when we could be reopening more if there were a more cautious approach on things like face masks?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I understand the narrative that the Conservative benches, clearly, are trying to develop today around this topic, but I would just reiterate the point that the First Minister made in his observations earlier, which is to say that the approach of the UK Government is not one that sets the health of the nation at odds with the health of the economy.The entire strategy of the Welsh Government in relation to this, advised by our medical advisers and scientific advisers, is to take that cautious approach, and I think that that is borne out by the consequences in terms of the suppression of the virus in Wales.
I think, if one speaks to most businesses, certainly, there's a recognition that that cautious, evidence-based, transparent approach has got us to the place we are today because of the readiness of people in Wales to respond to that in the way that they have, and I think that everyone understands that the damage of a second lockdown of the sort that we've been through would be very significant on the economy of Wales. And I think, therefore, the approach of seeking to avoid that, if we possibly can, seems to me to have a fairly wide base of support.

Darren Millar AC: You say that you've had a more cautious approach for health reasons, but I've just cited at least two examples where there hasn't been a cautious approach, certainly on face coverings and when it came to the testing of care home residents and staff. So, it's not true to say that you've had a more cautious approach, certainly in respect of those two things.
And I ask you again: what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the longer term impact on people's health as a result of your longer lockdown? Because we all know that poorer nations tend to have poorer outcomes in terms of the health of their populations, and I fear that you're making a mess of the economic recovery that could be because of your longer lockdown.
Now, I accept, I fully accept, that you've got to strike the right balance between health concerns and economic concerns, but I'm afraid there hasn't been any balance so far, and certainly not when it comes to your expert panel here in Wales. The membership of your panel, of course, consists of Gordon Brown, the former Chancellor and Prime Minister responsible for putting the country into the worst possible position during the 2008 economic downturn, only hobbling on then to a recovery after almost bankrupting the country; a former adviser to Ed Miliband, who was the brainchild behind the 'Ed stone', or 'the tombstone' as it came to be known, who now leads a left-leaning think tank; and, of course, the leader of a hard-left socialist think tank that has advocated a 21-hour working week, scrapping the measurement of GDP in terms of economic growth, and in fact has said that economic growth isn't actually possible. So, we've got a former Prime Minister and Chancellor responsible for the biggest boom and bust that our country had ever seen, a former special adviser, and a socialist who doesn't even believe in economic growth. How on earth is that going to help this country bounce back in the way that my party wants to see it bounce back as a result of this pandemic?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I refer Members to the lists in the Senedd Library of the participants in the round-tables and the expert advisory process, which, needless to say, perhaps aren't faithfully represented in the intervention from Darren Millar. He's also forgotten, I think, to mention the fact that one of the participants was a member of the council of economic advisers under Philip Hammond, and there are a number of businesspeople in Wales who would take a very different perspective in relation to many of these matters.
I think one of the things we've attempted to do, I think with success, is to secure a range of voices in those discussions so that as well as bringing fresh thinking, it also brings constructive challenge, of the sort I'd welcome from Darren Millar at some future point.

Question 3, John Griffiths.

Build Back Better

John Griffiths AC: 3. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the work the Welsh Government is doing to Build Back Better during and after Covid-19? OQ55460

Jeremy Miles AC: The Minister for Finance and Trefnydd and I have just issued a recent statement outlining the next steps in relation to our plans for stabilisation and reconstruction as a Government, which are informed by the views of the public, by stakeholders and by the challenge provided by external experts. We are clear that our aim is not to return to normal, but to seek to address the challenges that COVID has highlighted and, indeed, exacerbated.

John Griffiths AC: It is important that we find some positives amongst the general suffering and difficulty of COVID-19, and I welcome the work that you are doing, Counsel General, to build back better.
One aspect of recent months that people have appreciated is the reduced volume of traffic on our roads, but there are fears, of course, that because of the anxieties about using public transport, as we emerge from the restrictions there may be a substantial increase in road traffic. Here in Newport, of course, traffic on the M4 around the Brynglas tunnels is a key issue for us. So, looking forward, Counsel General, will you look at building back better in terms of improving public transport to deal with the issues of getting people out of their cars, for those journeys along the M4 route, and, in particular, look at rail services between Cardiff, Newport and Bristol, with more stops in between and new rail stations?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank John Griffiths for that question, and just want to confirm that our approach, absolutely, is to put at the heart of our response and the heart of our reconstruction that ongoing commitment to climate change, to an improved environment. We have all seen, I think, haven't we, because of the necessary change of behaviour that people in Wales have been prepared to undertake, if you like, the improvement in clean air from lower traffic and reduced flights and so on. We want to do all we can to make sure that we don't lose that benefit.
The Member will have seen, perhaps, the investment that Lee Waters announced recently in active travel funding for local authorities to bring forward schemes to encourage active travel in and around our towns, and also the work that Ken Skates and Lee Waters have been doing in relation, specifically, to the point that he makes, which is how we can come out of this crisis, this pandemic, in a way that supports our public transport networks to deliver a better service in future than they've been able to deliver in the past, so that we can continue to drive up use of public transport over time.
I think the bus emergency scheme that the Welsh Government announced recently, with the prospect that that holds of deploying our funding as a Government in a way that drives some of those outcomes better than we've been able to do the past, is a very positive indication of the kinds of lessons that we are learning, coming out of COVID, and our appetite as a Government not simply to turn the clock back to the circumstances that were the case as we entered into the pandemic.

Nick Ramsay AC: Minister, I must admit that I do like the expression 'build back better', it's got a certain catchiness to it, but, of course, what matters is that it actually works on the ground and that we do see really positive policy changes to make sure that there is change as we come out of the pandemic. Whilst I would agree with all of those areas that John Griffiths rightly cited as areas for improvement, above all of those, I would suggest that the Welsh Government looks seriously again at digital infrastructure and broadband, because if we can get broadband connections right, then there'll be less reliance in the first instance on public transport, on the motor car, on our road network. I know that there are many people who've been working from home over the last few months who would like to go on doing that as much as possible if that infrastructure was there. So, could you tell us what you are doing to make sure that, as we build back better, we build back broadband better—that's a bit difficult to say—as we come out of the pandemic so that we are taking that pressure off other modes of transport at the very outset?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I do absolutely accept that the difference in the work patterns that we've seen over the last few weeks, if they are to be sustained, will change the demands on our digital infrastructure, and it has an impact that could be quite pervasive, really, in terms of residential development and all sorts of other issues around geography.
The broadband investments that we've made as a Government have been made in order to plug gaps in the UK Government's failure to reach the parts of Wales that we would have hoped that they had done. That has been our approach. It's been a successful approach. What I think needs to happen is a UK-wide investment commitment from the UK Government to upgrade our infrastructure in a way that benefits all parts of the UK equally, and I hope that is something that we'll see coming forward in future.

The Loss of Jobs and Businesses

Andrew RT Davies AC: 4. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the number of jobs and businesses that will be lost in Wales due to the coronavirus crisis? OQ55443

Jeremy Miles AC: We know that current assessments don't reflect the entire economic picture, with economists predicting that the full impact may not be felt until October or beyond. We are doing all that we can as a Government to mitigate the effects and our £1.7 billion package of support means Welsh businesses have access to the most generous help anywhere in the UK.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. We saw last week many jobs, regrettably, being lost across the length and breadth of Wales. What I'm trying to understand is how your role in Government will assist the economic Minister, Ken Skates, in delivering support to make sure that we can retain as many jobs as possible, but also create new jobs across Wales. Can you enlighten me as to exactly how your role, with your panel of advisers, will support the Welsh Government in working with market intelligence to develop an economy that can create jobs and quality wages wherever you live in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Certainly. The role is to co-ordinate the Government's response in terms of planning for the reconstruction phase, as was set out in the joint statement with the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd yesterday. Policy responsibility for economic interventions obviously remains with the Minister for the Economy and Transport and North Wales. The task with which I'm engaged is to help co-ordinateand get the best possible understanding of what the likely impacts are going to be on Wales of various aspects of COVID, and for that to become a shared platform across Government, so that we can work in a joined-up way to address some of the challenges that his question suggests—so, some of the skills interventions, understanding the particular focus that they may need to have, how they relate to other questions around, for example, FE, HE and other support that young people in particular might need. So, it's to make sure there's a common understanding across Government, informed by the best possible level of engagement and expertise, that we identify both the risks that we need to address, and also, to reflect the point the John Griffiths made in his question earlier, where there are opportunities arising from that, that we're able to spot them in a timely fashion and support others to take advantage of them.

Jayne Bryant AC: Last week's news of the potential 450 redundancies at the Celtic Collection, which owns the Celtic Manor Resort and the international convention centre in my constituency, was a blow to Newport and the surrounding area. I understand that 610 jobs out of the 995 have been put in the at-risk category. The Celtic Manor has been a success story for Newport and Wales, and the new international conference centre, which has Welsh Government funding, has added a new string to the bow. The Celtic Collection's staff have been ever-present throughout and contributed heavily to that success. They will surely be needed once again when the pandemic passes. The amount of small businesses in the supply chain is extensive. What discussions has the Counsel General had with Ministers and others about the future plan for the resort and convention centre, and will the Welsh Government do all it can to urge the company to avoid these job losses?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that question. It's a very important issue and, I think, one of a number of very bleak predictions in terms of job losses in parts of Wales that we've seen in the last few weeks. The tourism and hospitality industry has been particularly adversely impacted, obviously, by COVID, in the way that we heard discussed in First Minister's questions earlier today. It has been part of our objective through the economic resilience fund to make available financial support to parts of that sector. I know that Celtic Manor Resort itself has benefited to some extent from that. Also, we will want to understand what more we can do working alongside the UK Government, who've made some announcements in terms of the statement last week. But we would say that, actually, there are some sectors in Wales that need specific support into the future, specific sectoral employment protection schemes, effectively, in order to be able to give the level of protection that we think may be needed, and obviously this is one sector that has been particularly adversely affected. But she will have our commitment, obviously, as a Government, to work with the Celtic Manor and any other employers facing this situation, as we've heard examples of in the Chamber already this morning.

The UK Shared Prosperity Fund

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 5. What recent discussions has the Counsel General had with UK Ministers regarding the UK shared prosperity fund? OQ55441

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 7. What recent discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding the shared prosperity fund? OQ55456

Jeremy Miles AC: Llywydd, I understand you've given your permission for questions 5 and 7 to be grouped.
I met with the Secretary of State for Wales in February and we have since been seeking to build on that constructive meeting and to make our case for a future model to replace EU funding in Wales. Engagement with other departments in Whitehall continues to be inadequate, and confirmation of the UK Government's proposals is now obviously overdue.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Indeed, and, Minister, only this week the Institute for Fiscal Studies has noted that, less than six months from the EU withdrawal date, we still have no details on the UK shared prosperity fund. It's not just the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government who are calling for clarity as well as trying to engage constructively on this; it's actually local authorities in England of all different political colours who are saying, 'Please tell us what is going on'. Now, the Prime Minister made a cast-iron pledge to the people of Wales that all the money that goes towards social and economic and community programmes in Wales would be found when we leave the EU, and it would be there for us to use and for us to focus through the way we want to do it within Wales as well. So, could I ask him, does he have any confidence that, within short order, as we go into the summer, he will have clarity on the UK shared prosperity fund, clarity that all the money, every penny piece, will be returned to Wales, and that we will be able to influence the way in which decisions are made on that funding?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that question, and also thank him for his chairing of the steering group on regional investment in Wales, which has put the Welsh Government and Welsh businesses and stakeholders at large in a very good position to understand what use we would be able to make of those resources if, as we hope, those promises are kept. So I'd like to thank him for his role in relation to that in particular.
We are frustrated, as is clear, I think, from what I've said already about the lack of progress on the specifics of the shared prosperity fund. As I said, there have been constructive discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales. I want to acknowledge that, but what we need is progress on the ground so that we can put these programmes in place, and that is lacking. I do think that that contrasts with the proactivity and the programmatic way in which we've approached that here in Wales. I don't have confidence going into the summer that we will have that information, in all candour. I think that we don't now expect that announcement until the comprehensive spending review in the autumn.
It may be that other factors around devolution in England and plans for post-COVID economic recovery are causing an impact at this point in time, but that now provides a really difficult context—and that's an understatement, really—for some of the projects and programmes currently in place. A rationally organised system would have ensured that those decisions had already been taken so that, going into 2021, there would have been a degree of continuity, which seems very, very hard to imagine can be possible if certainty isn't provided until the comprehensive spending review in the autumn, and that is a very serious missed opportunity.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Counsel General, earlier this year, the Secretary of State for Wales stated that,
'the collaborative approach I take with the Welsh Government over the distribution of the fund should ensure that it goes to the places where it is most needed, and is not—as some might argue has been the case in the past—blown on vanity projects.'
I welcome a collaborative approach and that the Secretary of State does not wish to see taxpayers' money wasted. Examples of ineffective spending of EU funding, of course, include Ebbw Vale's £2.3 million cable car, £3.5 million on a Bangor business park, and £77.3 million on dualling the Heads of the Valleys road. What measures—[Interruption.] Do you want to answer? What measures are you considering in co-operation with the UK Government to ensure that the shared prosperity fund sees money allocated to watertight projects so that serious problems and ineffective spending are not encountered, as they have been so frequently in the past?

Jeremy Miles AC: Look, there's a serious role that the Welsh Conservatives could choose to play in this discussion if they wanted to. It goes beyond reading out the quotes of the Secretary of State for Wales and listing what they perceive as the shortcomings over the years, which are absolutely contested. In each of our constituencies, there'll be thousands of individuals and thousands of businesses who have benefited from the well-deployed funding that has come to Wales from European sources over the last decade. What I will say to her is that I think the tone of her question is actually out of kilter with the tone of discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales, which have been constructive. So, I think she may not have read the most recent memo. But what I would say is I absolutely accept, because it's at the heart of the proposals that we've been developing, that there's scope for looking differently at the geographic distribution of these funds, from being outside the European Union—that's one of the flexibilities that our thinking has been taking advantage of—and to look at decisions being taken at a more regional level as well. So, there's a very exciting programme of changes and reforms that we could bring in in terms of how regional funding is spent in Wales, if we have the level of commitment that we're entitled to from the UK Government.

The Joint Ministerial Committee

Dawn Bowden AC: 6. Will the Counsel General provide an update on the work of the Joint Ministerial Committee on European negotiations? OQ55459

Jeremy Miles AC: The JMC(EN) has met twice this year. Negotiations, preparedness and the inter-governmental relations review have been the principal topics. Throughout, the UK Government has not used that forum to foster co-operative working. The JMC(EN) unfortunately remains erratic, and we continue to press for a more productive approach. We meet again tomorrow.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. I think, to a large extent, you dealt with some of this in your answer to Mandy Jones at the beginning, but the approach of the UK Government is certainly worrying and must be a major concern to many economic sectors in Wales. Indeed, in your scrutiny before the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee just yesterday, it reinforced the fears of many in this Chamber; I think it was Alun Davies, actually, who said that you're dealing with a UK Government in chaos. My concern, therefore, is that when we also consider the work that you're doing around an economic recovery plan for Wales, whether this weakness in the four-nation engagement of the UK Government is a significant barrier to meeting our future needs, at what is, effectively, a very critical point for the Welsh economy as we move towards the end of this transition period.

Jeremy Miles AC: The arrangements that we have on an inter-governmental basis are inadequate, certainly for the challenges that we faced in leaving the European Union, and they've been intensified by the combined effects on our economy, which is what her question is focusing on, of both COVID and leaving the European Union. What we need is a rational set of relationships that are able to manage difference and avoid or reconcile disputes when they arise in a much more mature, programmed way than currently exists, and in a way that better reflects the parity of esteem that Governments across the UK should expect as a foundational principle here.
In the context of the economy in particular, it is disappointing to say that the work around the internal market—which is very important, actually, in terms of how the UK's economy functions into the future, and which we as a Government certainly think is a—. You know, there's certainly work there that could bring benefit to Wales in terms of co-operation across the UK about economic development. But if that is brought forward as the proposition and imposed by one part of the UK on the other, that will not work, and it will not be acceptable to this Senedd. I would be very surprised if it were. And so, that is a good example, I think, of the difference that we think can be brought by a collaborative, principles-based approach, rather than one part of the UK seeking to impose an approach on the other. I very much hope that the proposals that the UK Government brings forward in this space, if they are as we expect them to be, can move away from those and closer to the kind of arrangements that we think are in the best interests not just of Wales, but of all parts of the UK.

The Brexit Transition

David Melding AC: 8. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to ensure the efficient movement of people and goods at Welsh ports once the Brexit transition ends? OQ55447

Jeremy Miles AC: Our priority remains delivering the UK's border commitments in a way that has as little impact as possible on the flow through our ports and on their local communities and economies. We are seeking to work closely with UK authorities to ensure that any new border arrangements can be delivered effectively in Wales.

David Melding AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I note that the latest assessment is that freight should not be impaired too greatly and that there is capacity for whether queuing is required, and no doubt you'll want to keep that to a minimum. But we hear little about passenger movements in terms of whether that experience will be made as smooth as possible. We've seen a steady decline for 20 years in the number of passengers taking these routes. Although that's plateaued recently, we do not want to see that decline continue.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank David Melding for that supplementary question. He will have seen the publication on Monday of the border operating model, which is a draft document into which we've had some input, but I think the point from now on is to get much closer alignment between the Governments in relation to this. We've got no time to lose between now and the end of this year, and the impact in some of these areas can be very, very significant. And there's a very complex blend of reserved and devolved competence at play here. So, I hope that, having seen the publication on Monday, we'll see a bit of a step change in terms of how we can work together in relation to resolving some of these very practical challenges.

Finally, question 9, Mike Hedges.

Trading with the European Union

Mike Hedges AC: 9. Will the Counsel General outline the effect on Wales of trading with the European Union on World Trade Organization terms? OQ55450

Jeremy Miles AC: Should the UK Government fail to reach an agreement with the EU for a comprehensive free trade agreement, and thus have to trade with the EU on WTO terms, the negative effects to the UK economy could be as high as over 9.3 per cent over the long term.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Minister. Can you confirm that, without a deal with the European Union, under World Trade Organization rules each member must grant the same most-favoured-nation market access to all other World Trade Organization members, not just cherry-pick those they like? My understanding is that, if we have zero tariffs on European steel, that would mean we'd have to have zero tariffs on Chinese steel. What effect would that have on the steel industry in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, without a free trade agreement that covers substantially all trade in products originating in the UK or the EU, then the UK and the EU would be trading on WTO terms. And the most-favoured-nation principle, which he mentioned in his supplementary question, means that WTO members can't normally discriminate between trading partners. There are some measures—some safeguarding measures—on imports of certain steel products, which will remain in place. But once the UK is fully outside the EU, and if there isn't a tariff-free trade deal, this will also have an impact on exports into the EU of steel from the UK. And the effect there of tariff-rate quotas could be very, very significant, and very significantly damaging for Welsh and UK steel. We support the steel industry in its aim for the UK to secure a comprehensive free trade agreement after we leave the transition period, and we're very, very concerned at some of the estimates coming out of UK Steel about the adverse impact on the sector in additional costs if that isn't successfully concluded.

I thank the Counsel General.

Two issues from me before we break for lunch. The first is that I'm aware that the health Minister has made a written statement on the future of the testing strategy on coronavirus. Given the comments across parties earlier on during the business statement about the appropriateness of making statements to this Chamber other than in a written form, I've decided therefore to extend the topical question under Janet Finch-Saunders's name, which is in the context of testing at care homes, to allow any Member that has a question on this written statement to be able to ask those questions of the Government also. And we will let the Government know that that is the case.
And also to draw attention to the fact that I've been made aware by Neil McEvoy that a photograph was taken within the Chamber during proceedings. Members know that that's not to be done, and not to be tweeted, and not to be repeated by any Member. I thank Neil McEvoy for drawing my attention to that.
We now break for lunch, and we will start again at 13:45.

Plenary was suspended at 13:02.
The Senedd reconvened at 13:46, with David Melding in the Chair.

5. Statement by the First Minister: The Legislative Programme

David Melding AC: Order. Item 5 is a statement by the First Minister on the legislative programme. Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Temporary Deputy Presiding Officer, Ministers have regularly reported to the Senedd on the impact of coronavirus on our budget, the economy and, primarily, the health of the people of Wales. Today, I will report on our legislative programme, another area where the virus has had a very significant impact.
Members know that we have had to redeploy officials across Government in order to respond to the virus and prepare for recovery. Among those are policy officials, translators, analysts and lawyers. Notwithstanding these unprecedented challenges, we have managed to drive forward scrutiny in a number of important areas. I wish to thank all the Members who have contributed to this constructive scrutiny.

Mark Drakeford AC: Chair, despite more recent challenges, much has been achieved during this last Senedd year. We have abolished the defence of reasonable punishment, banned unfair fees charged by letting agents and implemented a minimum price for alcohol. There will be duties of quality and candour for our health service and a new citizen voice body for health and social care. We have put in place an existing liabilities scheme for our GPs. We have passed an Act that improves the accessibility of our legislation in both Welsh and English. Today, I hope we will confirm our commitment to the welfare of wild animals by outlawing their use in circus performances.
Dirprwy Lywydd, before coronavirus had been identified, to prepare the statute book for exit day on 31 January, we had already made 51 correcting statutory instruments and consented to 158 UK SIs during the autumn. Since then, the Welsh Ministers have made more than 50 items of subordinate legislation dealing with aspects of the pandemic. These relate to both the necessary restrictions to protect public health, and ensuring statutory duties do not prevent our public services from responding to the emergency.
Cadeirydd, at the start of March, we had the most ambitious programme of primary legislation ever to be brought before the Senedd in a final year. For the reasons I have set out, for the remainder of this Senedd term, the Government has had to make some difficult decisions and focus on our very top priorities.
The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill will continue its passage in the autumn. This will extend the local government franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds by the next local authority elections. We have introduced the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill, to enable changes to be in place by 2022—the time frame to which the education sector has been working for some years. We will legislate to improve the position of tenants in the private rented sector through the Renting Homes (Amendment) (Wales) Bill, and scrutiny of that Bill will recommence in the autumn.
But large parts of our primary legislative programme have had to be withdrawn in the face of the pandemic. I very much regret that three major Bills cannot now be pursued to a conclusion during the remainder of this term: the tertiary education and research Bill, the Bus Services (Wales) Bill and the social partnership Bill have all had to be withdrawn from our programme. The tertiary education and research Bill has been published in draft, however, and it will be therefor any incoming administration to complete after May of next year. We will take a similar approach to the social partnership Bill, publishing a draft at the start of the next calendar year.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, in terms of primary legislation, other important development work is under way and will be available to the next Government and Senedd. That includes White Papers on clean air and agriculture, and work on reforms to residential leasehold and commonhold. All of that will be published before next year's election. And we continue, formally, to request the UK Government to devolve legislative competence for a vacant land tax, so that a Bill for that purpose can be prepared for Senedd scrutiny. Finally, in terms of primary legislation, the next Government will be under a duty to have a programme of consolidation and codification of its legislation, work for which is under way in the historic environment and planning fields.
Gadeirydd, the crisis has also required a radical recasting of our secondary legislative programme. Priority has been given to measures which respond to the COVID crisis, relate to EU exit and transition, or are essential for legal or other unavoidable reasons, such as to implement a pay award. Now, amongst that list, there are a large number of relatively minor but necessary measures, ranging from miscellaneous amendments to the student finance regime in Wales to seed potato amendment regulations to a new Senedd Cymru letters patent and proclamations Order. All of the above are subject to the negative process, but each one, quite rightly, requires careful drafting and reporting to Members here.
In the very constrained capacity that remains, we will target our resources on changes that make the biggest impact for our citizens. So, we will therefore go ahead with extending the smoking ban to outdoor areas of hospitals, school grounds and local authority playgrounds, the implementation of the socioeconomic duty and completing the implementation of the new additional learning needs system, as well as ending commercial third-party sales of puppies and kittens.
Dirprwy Lywydd, in some areas where secondary legislation has now had to be postponed, there can be interim measures put in place to make progress on our policy agenda. For example, independent schools will still be encouraged to ensure that their teaching staff register voluntarily with the Education Workforce Council until we are able to make this mandatory. And our aim will be to publish the results so parents can take that into account in making decisions. We will work with our local authority partners on the use of their existing powers to increase 20 mph coverage in Wales. Such interim action is not always an option, and we have very reluctantly concluded that it will not now be possible to complete some planned work, such as home education statutory guidance and database regulations.
Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a slimmed-down programme, but the demands on the Senedd will remain high.A significant body of EU-related legislation will still be required during the autumn of this year. This includes work to implement EU law coming into force during this year, to ensure retained EU law works at the end of the transition period, and to implement new regimes arising from our withdrawal from the European Union.
Dirprwy Lywydd, even if, as we hope, coronavirus remains under control, it will not have gone away. In these best of circumstances, there will be real challenges in responding to the speed and complexity of Brexit-related legislation in an autumn where the Senedd will still be dealing with health and economic consequences of the pandemic, the annual budget process and the demands of even the slimmed-down legislative programme that I have set out this afternoon. But that is the best of prospects. If the autumn sees a resurgence in coronavirus and an aggressive form of seasonal flu, then managing Brexit legislation alongside everything else will be a challenge of a very different order.
Gadeirydd, I intend to offer all party leaders here, and relevant spokespeople, an opportunity to discuss the options for the autumn as they currently appear to the Government. The Brexit debate itself is over, but there will be a shared ambition, I hope, to see the consequential legislative responsibilities of this Senedd discharged in as orderly and effective a way as circumstances allow. I have set out a non-exhaustive list of the legislative consequences, both primary and secondary, of the public health crisis.
With all the caveats I have set out, the remaining legislative programme has been designed to respond to our current challenges and to deliver for the future, and I commend it this afternoon to the Senedd.

Paul Davies AC: Can Ithank the First Minister for his statement this afternoon? This, of course, is the final legislative statement for this Parliament, and so it's a good opportunity to look at the Welsh Government's progress on its legislative programme and also consider the Government's priorities for the remainder of this Parliament.
Now, I appreciate that the COVID-19 pandemic has stretched and reprioritised the Welsh Government's legislative resources in the last few months, but prior to the outbreak there were still areas where the Welsh Government could and should have done more to use its legislative levers to deliver much-needed change for our communities. For example, whilst Wales was the first country in the UK to declare a climate change emergency, there's still a great deal of work that needs to be done in this area, and it's disappointing that the Welsh Government wasn't quicker in bringing forward legislative proposals to deliver a greener Wales for the future. Therefore, can the First Minister point to a single element in any Bill or in any aspect of this legislative programme that actually deals with the climate emergency that his Government declared in February 2019?
Llywydd dros dro, can I take this opportunity to thank the First Minister for his invitation to discuss the options for the autumn, as they currently appear to us, and I'm pleased to be able to respond positively to that request? Now, today's statement confirms that large parts of the Welsh Government's primary legislative programme has had to be withdrawn in the face of the COVID-19 pandemic, and as a result, the tertiary education and research Bill, the bus services Bill and the social partnership Bill have all been withdrawn. So, perhaps the First Minister could tell us a little bit more about the interim measures that the Welsh Government is bringing forward in relation to those three Bills that were initially planned for this term.
Of course, we have seen some significant legislation passed through this Parliament, and today's statement highlights a few of those Acts, and indeed the statutory instruments as well. For example, the Regulation of Registered Social Landlords (Wales) Act 2018 and the Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Wales) Act 2019—both have resulted in changes for landlords and others in the property sector here in Wales. And yet, we're still waiting for further information regarding Bills, such as the proposed clean air Bill, which, given the narrative that the Welsh Government has developed in relation to air pollution and climate change, is a missed opportunity to make a real difference to people's lives. Today's statement refers to the White paper on clean air and agriculture, and perhaps the First Minister can tell us a bit more about the reason why these Bills were not prioritised, given the serious impact that they would have on people's lives.
Now, legislation doesn't have to always come from the Government—the Commission has brought forward legislation, and I, myself, had the opportunity to test the Senedd's legislative processes with my own proposals. Of course, it's hugely disappointing that the Senedd could not pass the proposed autism Bill, and it's also disappointing that my long-standing campaign for war memorials legislation continues to be ignored, and I can point to examples from several other Members in this Chamber, all with credible legislative ideas, that this Government simply chooses to ignore. And therefore I hope that the First Minister will commit to work constructively with others on legislative proposals in the future, so that this institution can explore all legislative opportunities to change Wales for the better.
And more generally, in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, could the First Minister also tell us what new legislative opportunities have been found, so that we can work together to deliver legislation in the little time we have left in this Parliament to ensure Wales is as prepared as possible for any future outbreaks?
Llywydd dros dro, the Welsh Government has previously identified a few Bills that may now be considered in the next parliamentary term, such as the infrastructure consenting Bill, the social partnership Bill, the Wales agriculture Bill and the taxes Bill, to name a few. Of course, it's crucial that any legislative proposals are appropriately costed to ensure that there are sufficient resources available, and so perhaps the First Minister could confirm, in each of these cases, what immediate discussions has he had with his Cabinet colleagues about the implications of not implementing these specific Bills in this parliamentary term?
As we look back on this parliamentary term, it's important to consider how legislation that has been passed has been revisited and scrutinised in subsequent years to ensure its effectiveness. Lessons can always be learned, and effective post-legislative scrutiny is part of that learning process. So, I hope the First Minister will tell us candidly what lessons he has learned from this parliamentary term.
In closing, acting Presiding Officer, the Welsh Government's legislative programme is its language of choice, and whilst this parliamentary term has been a challenging one, it remains the case that the Welsh Government has not used its legislative tools to address climate change, boost employment or tackle some of the big problems facing communities here in Wales. Nevertheless, we have less than 12 months left until the end of this Parliament, and my colleagues and I will work constructively wherever we can to scrutinise and indeed to strengthen the Welsh Government's legislation, to ensure that its Bills deliver value for money and deliver significant improvements to people's lives across Wales. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, as far as climate change is concerned, as Paul Davies said, there will be a clean air plan published at the start of August. It will lead to a White Paper on clean air during the rest of this Senedd term, and that will prepare the position for legislation early in the next Senedd term, provided there is a Government that wishes to make that a priority.
We will bring forward agricultural pollution regulations as secondary legislation during this Senedd term. I look forward to the Member's support for those regulations, given that one of the features of coronavirus has been an increase in episodes of agricultural pollution while there have been fewer eyes around. So, some actions have been taken that, I think, are regrettable to say the least.
We will also bring forward an environmental principles legislation during the next Assembly term, if we're in a position to do that. I'm glad to say that we've had some successful negotiations with the UK Government recently in relation to the legislation they are promoting, to make sure that it properly respects devolution. Before the end of this term, we will put in place interim measures and an interim independent assessor to deal with complaints in the environmental principles field and an expert group that will help us to oversee that. I'm grateful to all those who've worked very constructively with us to put those interim measures in place.
The Member asked about the three Bills we've not now been able to take forward. Well, on the tertiary education research Bill, the fact that the Bill is published and is published in draft will now offer those stakeholders who had been anxious about their own ability to participate in scrutiny of the full Bill, had we been able to proceed with it, given that they all too are affected by coronavirus, to have people not in work, to have people taken away to other priorities—they will now be able to scrutinise that Bill in draft. We will have consultations and discussions with them. If there are improvements to the Bill that can be made in its drafting, then we will bring those forward in any final Bill the other side of the election.
As far as the buses Bill is concerned, it's a real loss, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very disappointed we're not able to proceed with it. The Welsh public deserve a position in which the major investment that is made on their behalf in buses provides a greater return on that investment, but we will pursue it in other ways. Our bus emergency payment arrangements, which we published just a week or so ago, will lead to a fresh set of discussions with the sector about how the investment the public make can lead to a more systematic planned series of services, greater integration between modes of transport, shared ticketing arrangements, and a series of other goals that we would have pursued through the Bill but will now pursue through those financial and administrative measures.
As far as the social partnership Bill is concerned, well, we have pressed ahead with our social partnership arrangements. We have a social partnership council that is meeting—it meets every fortnight. It's focused very much on coronavirus at present, but is doing the essential work that social partnership provides here in Wales. And the draft Bill that we will publish, which will have procurement as an important strand in it, will show how we will be able to take that forward.
I don't think the Government can fairly be accused of not being prepared to work constructively with others where others bring forward proposals which the Government believes to be worth supporting. I worked very closely with the opposition Member who was responsible for the nurse staffing Bill when that was brought forward in the previous Assembly term. I worked closely with the Finance Committee when I was the finance Minister in relation to the committee Bill that the Finance Committee brought forward on ombudsman reform. And I think where there are Bills we can support, of course we will work constructively on them. That will not be the case every time, because not every Bill that is brought forward by a private Member can command support from the Government. As far as financial matters are concerned, then, of course, any Bill has to have a financial resolution moved—well, on almost every occasion—and a memorandum published alongside it that demonstrates how the costs have been calculated and are to be met. Again, when I was finance Minister, we worked closely with the Finance Committee on a series of proposals that the committee brought forward to improve the underpinning financial information that the Government can provide, and I hope that Members will agree that that has improved the information provided to Members as part of their scrutiny.
Finally, Mr Davies asked me what lessons I thought we could draw from the term. I'll just end with this one, Dirprwy Lywydd, and it's one I've learned not just in this term, but throughout, that there is no Bill that is not improved by the process of scrutiny. And that's why the work that goes on in committee and on the floor of the Senedd is so important, and that's the spirit in which the Government sets out on bringing Bills to the floor. Bills are there to be improved, and when it is possible for the work of committees or amendments that are put forward to make the Bill better Bill, that is what we aim to do, and I think that lesson has been well borne out in the Bills that have passed through this Senedd and onto the statute book in this term.

David Melding AC: Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you—Deputy Minister?

David Melding AC: I think 'acting' is probably as high as I should go.

Adam Price AC: Acting Presiding Officer—you've had three titles already this afternoon.
First Minister, this will be your final legislative statement in this Senedd. I'm grateful for you having shared a copy with us and for the opportunity to have further discussions with you during the autumn. Now, even before COVID struck, our assessment of the Bills that you as a Government decided to bring forward was mixed to say the least, if truth be told. Now, even the legislation that you will press ahead with, despite the crisis, such as the reforms to the renting homes Act—the content rows back on the commitments that you and your party made in the case of no-fault erections, for example, where you amend the legislation to extend the notice period from two months to six months, rather than abolish the practice entirely. This will not give the assurances that those people who rent homes would need.
Over the period of this Senedd, Plaid Cymru has pressed for legislation to spread wealth equally across the whole of Wales, legislation to look at biodiversity and wildlife, and we used parliamentary opportunity to the greatest extent to take advantage of the legislative timetable in this place, with Dr Dai Lloyd, for example, proposing a Bill to safeguard Welsh place names, which has, by now, had some support from the backbenches of your party.
And in terms of the last of these themes, I have to note that we do have some real concerns about the Government's engagement with legislation in terms of the Welsh language. Now, focus was lost over 18 months and more, following your Government's decision to do away with the Welsh language Measure and the role of the commissioner. Now, we're in a fight again on the role of the language in the curriculum. The Government seems determined to use its legislative powers to actually go against the objectives that we all want to see, rather than facilitate them.
Of course, we're facing two crises now: Brexit and COVID. The European Commission and the European Court are playing a key role in environmental governance,and we will need to ensure that this is transferred into Welsh law as we leave these systems. There is no legislation yet to close that environmental gap that will exist at the end of December. Now, you did make a vague reference to this in your statement. Can you confirm when we will see that legislation in terms of putting arrangements in place to safeguard environmental governance in Welsh law?
I was pleased to hear that legislation responding to the COVID crisis will be prioritised. One specific issue that's been raised by Delyth Jewell and Helen Mary Jones—will you look in earnest at the need for emergency legislation in terms of licensing and planning to support businesses in hospitality or to support local authorities to support them to operate on pavements and streets in town centres, for example?
The Government accepted in the context of COVID grants for small businesses the need to provide particular protection in guidance to avoid the abuse of the support that is for real self-catering businesses. So, what are your plans to strengthen primary legislation so that the owners of second homes pay tax, and can't take advantage of support for small businesses where that is not appropriate?
May I also urge you, First Minister, despite the challenges related to Brexit and COVID and other matters, including, of course, seed potatoes regulations—those also have to be dealt with—to take the opportunities in the next few months to create a real legacy for the future, so that we can all be proud of the legislation of the fifth Assembly, which became a fifth Senedd, despite all the challenges?
Can we agree this afternoon, for example, that Welsh history in all its diversity, including black, Asian and minority ethnic history, must be statutory and at the core of the new curriculum? Can we also agree today that we mustn't waste time reopening the wounds of the past and drop the contentious clause on the English language in the new curriculum Bill, focusing rather on ensuring that the curriculum is a framework to deliver the fluency of all our citizens in Welsh? And can we agree that Stage 2 of the local government Bill will be used to create a huge leap forward in terms of equality, diversity and representation in our local authorities, through STV in every council, job sharing and positive discrimination?

Mark Drakeford AC: Acting Deputy Llywydd, may I thank Adam Price for those questions? A number of those will be coming before the Senedd in the legislation that we will bring forward. And so, as regards the renting homes Bill, which will be coming before the Senedd in the autumn, there will be an opportunity for people to see what's in the Bill, and, if there are amendments that people wish to raise, then, of course, there will be an opportunity for the Senedd to consider those amendments.
As regards the Welsh language, the Minister for Education has already stated that she is open to listening to the points that people raise during Stage 2 to see whether it's possible to have discussions between the parties to be able to resolve some of the concerns that some people see in the curriculum. And so she wants to do that in a constructive manner, and I'm sure that she will receive a constructive response.
In the environmental field, we will proceed with the Bill—not in this term, but we will prepare the way for the future. As I said when I responded to Paul Davies, we have agreed amendments to the Bill in Westminster to reflect devolution and the responsibilities that we hold here. In the interim, we will put steps in place; to be clear with people in the field in Wales, they will have an independent means of raising any concerns they may have, and, in case coronavirus has been a very difficult issue, we have proceeded with a group that has been convened, and we are almost ready with the pro forma and the practicalities to assist them. As I said, we wish to appoint an independent assessor,and we also have a panel of specialist experts ready to be appointed. So, these are just interim measures to fill the gaps before we can bring forward—well, whoever will be in Government will be able to return, after May, with a new Bill in the new context that we will face post Brexit.
On on-street hospitality, I believe that we have found another way forward without bringing a Bill to the floor of the Senedd, but we are still working with the local authorities on that.
We have changed the situation as regards people purchasing homes as second homes and then making them into small businesses to avoid paying the rates, or the taxes, allegedly. So, we have revamped the rules and regulations to assist in that regard.
As regards the history of Wales, and the history of black people in Wales, the Minister has established a group to assist us to draw together resources within the curriculum and to prepare to train people to be clear about how we wish them to approach the teaching of the history of black people in Wales. It's one thing to talk about it; it's another thing to secure the resources to promote the skills of the people who do that work.
In Stage 2 of the Bill on local government I'm sure there will be an opportunity to discuss STV once again on the floor here. Our policy is one of permissive PR, to give those local authorities that want to use the system the opportunity to do so, but we won't make it compulsory.

David Melding AC: Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: Thank you, sir—a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, David Melding. First Minister, thank you for your statement. Thank you very, very much for stating that the Brexit debate is over, but it's very important to bring what is necessary onto the statue book in an orderly and effective manner. I strongly agree, and I think there was an apparent invitation to support or at least be consulted about that, and certainly that's something I'd be very happy to do, and was pleased with what you said on that aspect.
Could I also say, on that, that I'm often criticising you and sometimes others for legislating differently in Wales for the sake of it, as I put it? I think it's incumbent on me to recognise, in this particular area, that that hasn't happened in terms of almost all of what you've done with the EU exit legislation. You referenced the 51 Welsh statutory instruments we've made, and I think 158 to which we've given UK consent, and I have been impressed by the pragmatic and sensible approach that's generally been taken in this area. I think it's partly pressure of work and not wanting to redo all of that, but also, I think, a sensible approach. Mick Antoniw and his committee have worked very, very hard on this, and I'd like to put on record my thanks to them.
You said on the curriculum Bill that it was to enable changes to be in place in 2022. Are you, as a Government, ruling out pushing back that deadline? Is it still possible there may be a change to that, or are you setting your face against it? To bring this forward I think is important, because in some ways I find it quite a difficult Bill. I've been rereading some of the debates about the 1988 Act and the curriculum then, and, interestingly, it was Margaret Thatcher who was trying to keep discretion for teachers and limit the extent to which the Bill was prescriptive, and many in the Department for Education who were wanting to go the other way, and the outcome was a compromise. But they were specifying particular things that had to happen in areas at the time in the curriculum, whereas the approach here is a much more general one, and concepts that are much harder to pin down into legislative language that will bite. I do just think it is quite difficult for teachers and schools to look at that legislation and then practically how is that legislation going to bind them. I know most of this will happen through guidance and them being helped through it, but, if anyone actually breaks the law, how will you know and what will the enforcement ever be for that?
COVID-19 has affected huge numbers of people in absolutely extraordinary ways that have made such difference to people's lives, but I think also it's made a significant difference to Welsh Government. Of course, I understand you redeploying civil servants elsewhere, and some legislation now can't get through. I asked earlier only for the same understanding to be extended to the UK Government, but I certainly extend it to your Government. But also you had a period of legislative time and could quite properly be expected to bring these Bills in. Now, you will not be able to, and that—for you and for your Government with the majority you have—is a loss, and I think we need to empathise with that.
Ken Skates, and the Bill he's been doing particularly on bus services I think is unfortunate—I'm not sure whether or not I agree with the overall approach, but I've been engaging with it, and certainly he has worked very hard with the committee in developing it with scrutiny. And now it seems, unlike the other Bills that are published in draft and may be taken up in the next Assembly, depending on the results of the election, this one seems to be being lost. A few aspects of it you're able to do in other ways, but what about some of those other principles? Do you expect them to come back, or is the uncertainty for bus services because of what's happened with COVID is so great that it's just not possible to say for now?
I was struck, talking to Lord Thomas about the justice commission, by the emphasis he put on the Renting Homes (Wales) Bill and commencing that Bill from 2016 and the huge practical on-the-ground difference that will make for many people in Wales. Often, when we talk about legislating differently, it may have an effect at margin for a few people; this will have a huge impact for so many people, and I just support what the First Minister says on the importance of the scrutiny in getting this right, particularly when you're amending a Bill, a complex Bill, before it has even been commenced.
You mentioned there was other important development work that is under way, including work on reforms to residential leasehold and commonhold. I'm aware of a very substantial programme of work from the Law Commission in this area. I wasn't clear if you were referring to that or whether there's a separate programme of work under way in Welsh Government. The Law Commission work has a small section early on about Welsh devolution and some ambiguity and uncertainty about the extent of devolution, given the cross-cutting themes of their work, but the pragmatic assumption that seemed to run through it was it would be done on an England-and-Wales basis. Do you expect that you would want to recommend consent to much of their work programme? Do you know more about it than has been published, or are you looking to develop a Wales-only approach in this extraordinarily complex area?
Two other areas you mentioned I think were going to be done by statutory instrument. Third-party puppy sales: I know a number of members of my group will be very pleased to hear that you're taking further action on that. And also, in terms of the banning of smoking, there had been some suggestion it was going to be a far wider measure, but, to the extent that you've mentioned hospital grounds, school grounds and local authority play areas, certainly I personally have no objection to those areas being included, and am pleased that it's not a wider programme.
Finally, can I just refer to land transaction tax? We spoke at length as the Bill was going through about potential different models of scrutiny, and I was arguing that the rate should be on the face of the Bill and you were strongly against that, but you proffered a number of other mechanisms of scrutiny that would substitute for that. Do you agree it's sort of unsatisfactory that this was announced at a press conference by the finance Minister yesterday, isn't being considered even as a statement today, and we then have the two months of recess? Okay, you've lifted the threshold, but there are also some quite complex legislative options about how you may do that in terms of the second homes and not carrying through the exemption to that category. I can think of a number of different ways in which that might be done, and I'm just unclear how the Government is using the legislation to attain its goal. It really would have been more satisfactory if we had had a proper debate and discussion about that here.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those questions. I'll come back at the end, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, to the points about EU legislation, because I just think there's some important information that I can provide to the Senedd.
Can I agree with what the Member said about Mick Antoniw's committee and the very hard work that they have carried out in that area? In relation to the implementation of the curriculum scheduled for September 2022, I was in Ysgol Llanhari yesterday speaking to the head there. I think her view was that they very much wish to ensure the curriculum is implemented in September 2022. They're very keen not to lose the momentum, the enormous amount of work that they have put into preparing for the new freedoms that the new curriculum will provide to them.
I recognise the point that the Member makes that there are sometimes individuals who call for more freedom, and then, when offered it, turn out not quite to know what it is that they're going to dowith it and want to be told what they ought to do with the freedoms that they've got. But I don't think that that is true of the education sector in Wales; I think they've worked very hard, they want to do it and we want it to happen. Can I rule out categorically the possibility that we may have to delay it? Well, given what we know about the coming winter, if everything were to be adverse and the impact that that would have on schools and teachers as well as everybody else, we have to be pragmatic enough to say we'll keep it under review, but our ambition remains the same: we want to see it in for September 2022, and I think that the sector wants to see that as well.
I share the Member's disappointment at the Bus Services (Wales) Bill's withdrawal. We agonised long and hard about it, but in the end, it simply wasn't possible to corral together the policy and the legislative input that would be needed for it, given everything else that is happening. One of the reasons why we're not publishing it in draft, as the others, is that we want to return to the taxis element of the original Bill, which the Member will remember was a Bill that was going to encompass both aspects. I hope to return to that if there's an opportunity to do so.
Commencing the 2016 Act does depend upon us passing the Renting Homes (Amendment) (Wales) Bill. The 2016 Act is a major Act of this Senedd, with really profound reforms for people who rent their homes. It's why, when choices had to be made—and the bus Bill and the other Bills we're not able to take forward were in the mix—this Bill was the one that we had decided to come forward with because of its impact on being able to commence the 2016 legislation.
As far as leasehold reform is concerned, my understanding is that the Law Commission will publish its final recommendations on 21 July. I couldn't agree more with the Member about the fiendishly complicated nature of leasehold and reform, and I don't claim at all to have a full grasp of it. We are waiting to see the final recommendations of the Law Commission and they will have a shaping influence on our ability to bring forward reform in that area.
I'm grateful for the Member's support for the use of secondary legislation in relation to third-party puppy sales.
Personally, I wish we could have gone further with the smoking ban legislation in this Senedd term; we can't now do that. It's interesting, reading reports overnight, that there are people who are now experiencing outdoor hospitality where smoking is allowed, and calls for smoking to be banned now in those places. Because people are so used to smoke-free environments indoors, finding yourself having to put up with people's smoke out of doors is not a pleasant experience, and people understand why it's important to take action there. Sadly, we won't be able to do that in this term. We'll prepare ahead.
And finally, on LTT, well, we're using the provisional affirmative; it's the procedure that this Senedd endorsed. It has its limitations, as the Member has said. It's part of why my colleague Rebecca Evans will be talking very soon about the possibility of a taxes Bill that we will be able to bring forward in order to discharge these responsibilities in a different way. But, in the circumstances, with the time that we had, given the announcement in England last week, we thought it was important to come forward with specific proposals and that's what we have now done.

Alun Davies AC: First Minister, I'm grateful to you for the statement this afternoon and, like you, I share the disappointment that we're not going to be able to move forward with a Bill to reregulate bus services. Deregulation, of course, was a Thatcherite disaster that is continuing to wreck our services, especially in places like my constituency where we spend the money, but we don't get the services we require. I think we all want to see buses being reregulated to ensure that we do have the services that we require.
First Minister, there are a number of different areas where I believe we could benefit from additional legislation. I've been considering environmental legislation, the protection of our ecology and fragile environments. The First Minister will remember that I put forward proposals to create a new national park in Wales, in the Valleys, and I think it is important that we look again at how we regulate and designate our national parks. There are, of course, other parts of the country that would benefit from the designation of a national park. I remember the campaign for a Cambrian mountains national park in Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire as well, and there are other parts of the country.
Could we also consider a clean Wales Act? The First Minister's referred to a clean air Act, and I fully support that proposal, but he will be aware of the littering we're seeing in our communities and the great distress that is caused to people, in different parts of the country, by fly-tipping. I've seen fly-tipping increase over recent years in my own constituency, where our beautiful hillsides and mountains are used to dump waste. It is already illegal, but we need to be able to ensure that we can increase the penalties and make more robust law to protect our communities from that.
It would also be useful to see a deposit-return scheme introduced in Wales. I remember when Corona was pop, returning my bottle in order to get my penny to buy some more pop, and I think it would be something we would like to see the return of.
And finally, First Minister, can I speak on a more personal note? Members will be aware, and I'm obviously very grateful to Members for their kind words and sympathy, but I suffered a cardiac event some months ago. I was very, very lucky that I was with somebody who understood CPR and was able to find a defibrillator within minutes. When my heart stopped beating, there was somebody there who could help me and save my life. The provision of defibrillators, the provision of training in basic resuscitation, together with a statutory path of survival, planning for all public service bodies and health authorities to work together, with the general public, to ensure that everybody has the same opportunity for life that I was given. And when I was speaking to the people who had saved my life some months ago, they were very clear that it was members of the public who were there when my heart stopped beating that gave the ambulance crew and the surgeons in the Heath hospital the opportunity to give me a second breath of life. So, it is the public and it is our professionals working together with a path of survival, together with the materials, the opportunities and the training, to enable everybody to have that chance of life.

Mark Drakeford AC: I will thank Alun Davies very much for that. I agree with him that the deregulation of the buses has been a 30-year disaster, and we see that in Wales, which is why our Bill to reregulate the bus services was such an important one. I do want to be clear with Members that we are working on alternative ways of achieving the same objectives. Even though the method, the legislative route, is not available to us in this Senedd term, it doesn't mean that there are not other powerful levers that Government can use, and we will be using those, particularly in the current context, where bus providers are so heavily dependent upon public subsidy to provide a service of any sort.
I thank him for what he said about environmental legislation. I sometimes have anxieties about environmental legislation, that the burden of it is carried by the poorest, that when we demand higher standards and we require other things, it's people with the least ability who have to find a way of bearing that burden. But there is no excuse for littering; there is no excuse for fly-tipping. Nobody needs to do those things, and poverty doesn't come into it, whereas it does in lots of other things. So, I am with him myself. I regularly bore people who I am travelling with, as we go along the routes in and out of Wales, at the sight of litter on our roadsides and on the sides of our train tracks. What sort of message does it send to people who are coming to visit this beautiful place about the way some of those locations are treated? So, legislation to do more and do better through a clean Wales Bill, he's made a powerful case for that.
And, of course, the Member makes a case for cardiac legislation with an authority that I certainly couldn't muster, and Members here, I know, will have listened very carefully to what he has said on that. As everybody in this place will be thinking ahead to ideas they want to put to the public next year, I think some very powerful points have been made by the Member this afternoon.

Mick Antoniw AC: First Minister, firstly, can I thank you for your statement? Can I also thank, and put my own name on record as thanking, really, all those Welsh Government lawyers in respect of the considerable amount of legislation that they've had to work on? I think it's difficult for people to perhaps appreciate the scale of legislation that has been developed and the skills that go along with that. And equally so because my committee is one that assesses and reviews the probity of a lot of the legislation as it goes through, and scrutinises, and we know that within the pressure, from time to time, mistakes are made, so also the skill and expertise of the Senedd lawyers, who back the committee and identify those, and then the positive relationship that exists in ensuring that we have some of the best and most effective legislation that goes through. Certainly, in our 10 years as a Parliament, as a legislature, we have developed the skill at developing effective and well-drafted legislation. We obviously have more to learn, but it has been a very productive 10 years.
Can I say, first of all, in respect of the comments you made in respect of legislation on residential leasehold and commonhold, there will be whoops of joy going up in my constituency at the possibility that we will legislate to ban the scourge of leasehold properties for the future? Many leasehold issues are, of course, matters that are reserved, so what the Law Commission comes up with will obviously be of importance to us. But there is another aspect to this that it is important that we develop as well, and that is in respect of the management companies, the amount of ancillary property around developments that are also put out to management companies. This may well be something that we could actually stop through the planning process without legislation, but I think it goes hand in hand that, on the one hand, those who purchased leasehold properties end up having to pay leasehold payments, but also then that, often, many of the facilities around and the land around are also subject to further charges that blight the properties, and we would want to see an end to that.
Can I say in respect of the social partnership Bill that I fully understand the delays there and what is important is that we have legislation that is effective? This is legislation that is going to become so important, groundbreaking in the UK, in respect of the post-COVID environment that we live in, where we're looking, really, at the way we use our procurement to establish ethical standards, that we recalibrate the values in terms of some of our employment and social relationships that we actually have. I know from the trade union side that, although there was a hope that this legislation would be on the books before the elections, the preference certainly is to have effective and rigorous legislation prepared for the next Assembly.
I'm very pleased also at the work that is going on with regard to the implementation of section 1 of the Equality Act 2010. This will enable Government to set guidelines in terms of socioeconomic duty. It is legislation that will be very important in respect of women workers, in terms of the equality, the gender pay gap and the general gender discrimination that exists within many of our workplaces and parts of our society. Perhaps you could comment on the issue of guidelines that would need to go along with this in order to implement and make effective this legislation.
The other area, of course, that is very important is the codification of law and access to law and access to justice. I do hope, in terms of one area, that what we do—

David Melding AC: Have I got override on this? Mick, people will think you're putting in an application for his job if you go on any longer. You've been over four minutes. Last sentence.

Mick Antoniw AC: I'll finish. My last sentence is how pleased we all are about the commitment in respect of implementation of Lucy's law. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Gadeirydd, thank you very much, and thank you to Mick. Mick Antoniw began by pointing to the astonishing demands that have been made on Government lawyers in the COVID context. Over 60 items of subordinate legislation have been made by Welsh Ministers since early February. Members here will expect, of course, that those powers have been used in relation to the health and social care systems, but they've also had to deal with planning, business tenancies, carrier bag charges, bathing water, education and local government. It's been an enormous effort, and the scrutiny provided through Mick Antoniw's committee, with the help of lawyers on the Commission side, has been invaluable given the speed at which all of this has had to be done.
I look forward, too, to leasehold and commonhold reform. We've already, in this Senedd term, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, made a decision that no Help to Buy properties can be leasehold if they're to get support through the Welsh Government, and the management company issues affect freehold sales as well as leasehold sales. I can see that there are other Members around the Chamber here who've had to deal with the results of people having bought a house finding themselves caught up in management fees for freehold properties over which they appear to have very little control or redress.
On the social partnership Bill, I'm grateful to trade union colleagues for their understanding about why we're not able to proceed with it, and I've said to my officials that I want us to use this period to make it an even more effective and important Bill when we're able to publish it in draft. The socioeconomic duty has survived some very tough meetings where we have had to cull our secondary legislative programme to the bone, but the Minister responsible for it is Deputy Minister Jane Hutt, and I can tell you that the tenacity with which Jane has ensured that that piece of secondary legislation remains alive has been everything you would have expected of her.
I referred to codification in my opening statement. Dirprwy Lywydd, we have moved ahead with codification in relation to the historic environment and in the field of planning, and the next Government, of whatever colour, will be under an obligation passed by this Senedd to come forward with further codification and consolidation measures.

David Melding AC: And the final speaker on this, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, First Minister. I share the concerns about our inability to go ahead with the bus Bill, but I'm reassured that you think you've got other ways of protecting this sector, because in particular in Cardiff, where we're fortunate to have a publicly owned Cardiff Bus, they are constantly facing unfair competition from private, so-called commercial operators who have managed to cherry pick the most profitable routes while ignoring the socially important routes. Equally, Cardiff Bus hasn't been able to access the economic resilience emergency fund, even though it obviously has been able to get hold of the support of the COVID job retention scheme. But, nevertheless, they've lost over £600,000 in the last three months, ensuring that essential workers were still able to get to their jobs, and I would be interested to know a little bit more about how we plan to safeguard these essential services, going forward, if we can't legislate.
One thing that you mentioned in your statement was the seed potatoes amendment regulation. It sounds marginal, but I wondered what relationship it has to the post-Brexit regulations the UK Government is preparing, where commercial seed operators are very concerned that they may have to pay £300 per variety in order to be able to continue to sell their seeds in Wales or, indeed, across the UK. That is obviously a very anti-competitive measure that could hugely benefit the very large conglomerate companies and put a lot of small vegetable seed companies out of business. So, I wondered if there is any link between those two.

Mark Drakeford AC: Our Bill would have reversed the position, Chair, brought in under the original Thatcher Government legislation, which has prevented other municipal bus company formation in Wales. The Bill allowed those places that had existing municipal bus companies to continue with them, and Cardiff and Newport have continued for 30 years in that way, but it's prevented us from being able to use similar possibilities elsewhere in Wales, and our Bill would have reversed that position. We are working with Transport for Wales to find alternative ways in which we can bring ownership of bus services back under the control of those parts of the public service that essentially pay for them, and to do so in a way that is planned, where we don't have the sort of competition—wasteful competition—that Jenny Rathbone referred to, where the ability of a company like Cardiff Bus to support less profitable routes is damaged by the fact that the only competition they face is on routes where profits are to be made. Discussions between the bus company and the Welsh Government are ongoing.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I began to regret choosing the seed potato amendment Order as the one that I highlighted, given that the Member clearly knows so much more about it than I do. [Laughter.] I don't believe that our amendment is linked to the disturbing changes that she referred to across our border. I think it is one of those annual regulations that have to come in front of the Senedd through the negative procedure. But, the general point the Member makes is one I entirely agree with—that we will need to use our environmental legislation to make sure that the standards that matter so much here in Wales, and the protections that are afforded to Welsh consumers as a result, are preserved as we go into a more difficult period ahead.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much, First Minister.

6. Topical Questions

David Melding AC: We now move to topical questions. Before I call the first one, can I just verify that the health Minister is available on Zoom? I can now see him. That's marvellous. To ask the first question, then, of the Minister for Health and Social Services, Janet Finch-Saunders.

COVID-19: Testing for Care Home Staff

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on weekly COVID-19 testing for care home staff? TQ477

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I have today announced we will continue the current weekly testing regime for a further four weeks. If COVID-19 prevalence rates remain low, as they currently are, I expect to reduce care home testing to fortnightly from 10 August. I will continue to review and adapt our testing policy based on the latest evidence and advice.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Well, I'd like to start by thanking the Llywydd for addressing a serious affront to the Welsh Parliament: the health Minister choosing to make such an important statement outside this Chamber. Now, having considered the written statement, I welcome the fact that he has extended the weekly testing regime for a further four weeks, but I am alarmed that he may reduce care home testing from 10 August. I would like to remind the Minister that Care Inspectorate Wales have been notified of 3,382 adult care home resident deaths since 1 March. That's 74 per cent higher than deaths reported for the same time period last year. Seven hundred and thirty four care home residents have died with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, and the Older People's Commissioner for Wales has rightly described the situation in our care homes as a tragedy. More should and could have been done sooner to support residents and the staff, who do so much to care for them.
We, here in Wales, had to wait until 15 June for weekly care home testing of staff to commence, almost three months from the start of lockdown. Why? Why did the Welsh Government choose to state that the testing policy was under review instead of extending testing for staff immediately? Surely an extension was reasonable and obvious at a time when there continues to be a high number of adult care home residents dying of all causes—112 between 4 and 10 July. Moreover, it was and is perfectly feasible to extend weekly testing immediately and to maintain this beyond 10 August, when considering that testing in Wales is only still at around 20 per cent capacity. Bearing that in mind, do you agree with me that weekly testing should be extended to care home residents and other front-line social care staff like domiciliary care workers?
You know I have raised this with you, Minister. You know that you shared your concerns with me—

David Melding AC: Quickly now, Janet—I've been very generous.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. Care Forum Wales have stated that their concerns centre around the turnaround time for results, as 46.5 per cent of test results authorised in NHS Wales laboratories were returned within a day, and 66 per cent within two days. That's down on last week. When are you going to get a grip on the test result waiting times? Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

Vaughan Gething AC: There were quite a lot of points there, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, and I'll try to run through them as quickly as possible. I don't accept the accusation that the announcement today and the written statement amount to a serious affront to the Welsh Parliament. In fact, I only signed off the new testing strategy very late last night, and I'm very happy to answer Members' questions in a very busy day in Plenary.
On the end point that Janet Finch-Saunders made on turnaround, as she'll have heard from the First Minister today, actually, it's not correct to say that this is about NHS Wales's laboratory seeing a reduction; we actually saw an increase over the last week in turnaround times. There was a specific issue, a technical issue, in the lighthouse lab in Manchester that serves north Wales, and that's had a material impact on our turnaround times. You'll see in the next week's testing figures that we had a significant increase in testing over the weekend, with over 22,000 test results over the weekend, the majority of them in lighthouse labs, and I expect us to make continued progress forward. I am certainly aware of the importance of quick turnaround times through our contact tracing service.
On whether we should alarmed at the two-week proposal, no, we should not be alarmed. This is actually good news, and it's good news because it reflects the very low prevalence of coronavirus in our care homes. We're now at a rate where the range of positive results is well within the range for false positives—where positive results are returned but they're not necessarily true positive results. We're also in a position where, as the Member wanted to compare us with England, actually, it's less than 1 per cent prevalence within care homes staff—significantly less than 1 per cent—whereas in England it's 2.4 per cent; a material difference. And also, they haven't quite completed their care home testing programme within England. We're in a different position, and if we continue to see very low prevalence within our care homes, then we can safely reduce the frequency to a two-week, a fortnightly retesting, which is still a very regular programme of retesting within the care home environment for our staff.
The evidence that will be published later today confirms that, on asymptomatic testing generally and the current antigen test, it's not a good way to make use of that test to simply test large groups of asymptomatic people. So, we won't be rolling it out to other groups in an unqualified way. We'll be looking, as the strategy sets out in the written statement I've issued today, at evidence for where we think it's the right thing to deploy test results for a wider and larger population. And it's worth Members bearing in mind the very clear statements from the Royal College of Pathologists about needing to have a testing programme that isn't simply obsessed about something that is done and counted; that isn't a marker of the success of our programme. Testing has to have a purpose. If you look at prevalence rates for coronavirus in Wales, we're in a very good position for a variety of reasons and the testing programme is part of that, but it's about how we use tests and how we continue to keep people here in Wales safe.

Delyth Jewell AC: Care homes have borne the brunt of the COVID-19 crisis, with care home residents accounting for around a third of all deaths. Now, the Welsh Government was allowing untested residents to enter care homes from hospital up until 23 April, which was an absolute scandal that Ministers will have to be held accountable for in an upcoming inquiry, even if they're not always keen to answer questions about it when asked by Members of the Senedd. It took months of pressure before the Welsh Government agreed to roll out a comprehensive weekly testing strategy for care homes, and, until pressure was exerted, there was no new strategy in place.
Now, I do welcome the fact that that has been announced today, but Care Forum Wales has said that there was no engagement at all with the sector about what was set to happen. Care homes were let down once again, and I think that that is utterly unacceptable. But can the Minister explain the reason for initially discontinuing these tests given that we had excess capacity, the reason why a replacement scheme was not ready to be implemented and announced immediately, and his justification for not engaging with the sector to explain this? Finally, do you accept, Minister, that this delay in letting the sector know what would happen until the last minute caused unnecessary distress?

Vaughan Gething AC: Again, there were a number of points there, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. When it comes to the vulnerability of residents in care homes and the significant number of excess deaths, we still don't have any evidence that discharge arrangements from hospitals are a material factor or, if they are, then how far in the number of excess deaths and, of course, it's never been the case that I've refused to answer Members' questions here in the Senedd.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: When it comes to engagement with the care home sector, there was engagement with officials before I made a decision on signing off the testing strategy. I know that there was a direct conversation with the chief exec of Care Forum Wales before the strategy had been completed. That hasn't come from any media interviews or essays from politicians on any side of the Senedd;it's come because that's my expectation—that we do have conversations with the sector that's affected. And I don't think it is a reasonable accusation to make that people were left unaware and bereft while a decision was made.
We've just completed the four-week testing programme. I made a decision last night, announced today, about taking that programme forward. It's still on a weekly basis, and, as I say, it is good news for everyone that we have a very low prevalence of coronavirus in the country, and in particular in the care home sector. That comes from all the indications in the first four weeks of this programme, and we will be able to safely reduce the frequency of testing. That won't put residents at risk—we'll still have a frequent, regular retesting programme, and we'll continue to follow the evidence. And I think that, once that evidence is published, all Members will be interested in seeing that evidence about asymptomatic testing, because it does show that we need to understand the point and the purpose of testing, rather than seeing it as a good and an end in itself. It's a tool to help keep us safe, and it's important that we understand how it's to be applied, as it continues to help keep all of us safe here in Wales.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, I notice you made a new statement today on how you will take the testing regime forward. Obviously, what's critical is replying to those tests and getting the results of the tests back to people who've undertaken the test. I heard your response to Janet Finch-Saunders, but it is a fact that, week on week, it's been a declining response rate, that nearly 20 per cent of test results are not being returned to the person within three days, and only 46 per cent of tests being returned within 24 hours, down from 49 per cent. So, accepting you've made an announcement around a new testing regime, how are you focusing your energies to make sure that, whatever testing regime is in place, the results get back to the recipient as quick as possible, so that they can either get back to work or take the necessary action to isolate and protect?

Vaughan Gething AC: That is exactly the form of action that we're looking to undertake. A few weeks ago, we recognised that we needed to make further progress, and we weren't seeing the progress we wanted to, so we had to examine a range of different parts of the system. And this is set out in not just the written statement but in the strategy that's been published today. So, we look week to week—and it's a fairly small period of time—at what the figures are. We've looked at what we do in terms of the ease of people getting a test—that's now in a place where people can get a test quickly and easily. We then need to look at what happens from the point of testing to getting that test to the lab. We've already taken an example of NHS Wales labs, where we have increased the speed of that—we've changed the courier arrangements, as the First Minister indicated in answer to your question earlier.
And then when it comes to efficiency within the labs, it's an explanation not an excuse that the lab in particular in Manchester that serves large parts of north Wales had a technical issue that meant there was a slowdown. There are two points there. One is that, even though we're not in control of those labs, what we do need to understand is, if they do have that issue, that it's escalated to us much earlier on, so we don't find out at the end of a week that there's been a problem. We are now, though, in a position where we're getting that information from those lighthouse labs flowing directly into our system. So, as soon as the results are available, they're going to our local contact-tracing teams. So, actually contact tracing is still a very successful endeavour here in Wales, with over 90 per cent of contacts over the last three, four weeks being contacted and chased up successfully.
The final point is the programme of improvement we've got within the NHS Wales lab—it will have a more direct relationship with Public Health Wales, of course. And we're looking at improving the turnaround within those labs and what that will mean in terms of cost, in terms of the staffing model, and how we take that forward. Whilst we have very low prevalence rates, we need to get this right before we move into an autumn and a winter season, where we know that there'll be more tests undertaken because of the respiratory tract infections that are a common part of the autumn and winter seasons. So, good news that we have low prevalence. We are aware that there are issues that we need to resolve—we're honestly dealing with those, and we'll be open with the public and Members about that improvement action, and we'll continue to publish the figures to show how successful we are in improving those turnaround times.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: First, may I say that it's a shame that it's only by the decision of the Llywydd to extend the time for a topical question that we're having time to discuss this strategy now? Because a statement should have been timetabled for this, because test and trace is so centralto the fight against coronavirus, and the strategy over the next few months is so central to our success. It is still a failure in not using the capacity available. I accept entirely that we shouldn't be making ad hoc decisions on testing—we have to be strategic and we do have to test for a purpose, but, first, I do think that planning to reduce testing of care home staff, from the current weekly regime to a fortnightly regime from August, is an unnecessary and risky step at the moment, given the capacity available.
And (2) I am disappointed that there is no reference to the need for asymptomatic testing of care workers going into people's homes. I have called for the extension of asymptomatic testing, certainly for those health and care workers who are at greatest risk, both for themselves and the people who they are in contact with, and surely, those people who go into the homes of others to provide care—many people within one day—have to come into that category. Yes, the number of cases has reduced and we take pride in that, but let's keep it that way and look out for the most vulnerable people. So, can we have a commitment on testing for those going into people's homes to provide care?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think it's worth reflecting on the—. I referred earlier, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, to the comments made by the Royal College of Pathologists; it's worth reminding Members of what they said. This from the president of the Royal College of Pathologists:
'Testing is not something that is just done and counted. It is a process with clinical purposes for individual patients, for those who care for them and for the population at large. It is a conscious and targeted use of valuable materials and skilled professionals within the context of a pathway and purpose.'
And I simply don't agree with the Member's conclusion that it is a risky measure to signal that care home testing will reduce in August, if we continue to see very low levels of prevalence. It's a mark of our success that we would still be maintaining a regular programme, but on a different cycle. And our ability then to still act, where we do have positive cases of coronavirus, will remain unchanged and we will be able to quickly and swiftly move to test whole cohorts, if we need to.
To be fair, though, I have had the advantage of seeing the technical advisory group's updated advice on asymptomatic testing, and I think, when the Member has an opportunity to read that, as it will be published today, he'll see that it isn't as straightforward as implementing asymptomatic testing for any and every individual as a way to keep the whole country safe. There are real challenges in particular in false positives that come from it, when we have such low prevalence. So, it's about testing for a point and a purpose and that's exactly what we've set out today and it's underpinned by the latest evidence and advice we have.
And when it comes to domiciliary care workers, I've already indicated that we will be looking to have domiciliary care workers in the next wave of antibody testing, to understand the surveillance, from a surveillance perspective, of where we are with coronavirus. So, we're thinking about what to do, how to keep workers safe and how to keep the people they care for safe, and that underpins the way in which we approach this, as we always have done, as we look to keep Wales safe and get ourselves ready for what, I'm afraid, is going to be an even more uncomfortable winter than we're used to.

Nick Ramsay AC: Can I concur with the comments and questions that were posed by my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders at the opening of this topical questions session? Minister, a lot has been said about the importance of testing and tracking and the issues in the domiciliary care sector. I know that Aneurin Bevan University Health Board have put a particular emphasis recently on testing patients before they leave hospital to go either into a care home setting or back to their own hometo a domiciliary care setting. That seems to be a pretty sensible practice. Is that widespread across Wales, and are you looking at ways that testing like this could be extended and other ways that the domiciliary care sector can be made as COVID-free as possible?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. Well, actually, the reference that you made to Aneurin Bevan is a national approach in terms of hospital discharge, and it's part of a risk-based approach. When we changed testing policy on discharges out of hospital, that was largely about providing confidence to the residential care sector. The evidence and advice, at that point in time, did not support, on a science basis, testing everyone who was asymptomatic. It has always been the case that people with symptoms should have been tested before discharge from hospital. We then had a situation where we recognised that, actually, the sector was going to start declining referrals, which would have been particularly difficult for people, because harm is caused when people are ready to leave hospital and they're not able to. So, it was a practical choice about giving confidence and about keeping the whole service moving so people could return, in large part, to their own home, as opposed to new admissions from people who have not been in a care home environment before.
When it comes to the risk-based approach, we are then looking at what the risk is in overall harms if that testing doesn't take place, and that's very different to an unevidenced approach where we don't understand the risks on a wider roll-out of asymptomatic testing, which I'm regularly urged to undertake by a range of people, including in the Chamber here today. The up-to-date evidence I think is something that is of genuine interest to Members of all sides, so I understand they're asking questions because they are concerned about their constituents and how we maintain the success we've seen, as a country, to get to the point where we have very low prevalence rates of coronavirus, as we want to successfully not just come out of lockdown, in the final stages, but actually to maintain that time out of lockdown. And that's why we're reconsidering how we rebalance the NHS with red and green zones. It's why we're thinking about a whole variety of things. The testing strategy is a part of that, and that's why I've set out the testing strategy today. And I'm in a position to answer these questions today because I signed off that strategy very late last night. I've been keen to get it right and then to make sure that we're able to provide that to Members and the public. And the statement that you have before you today, and the strategy, is part of that.
If the evidence changes, I'm sure Mr Ramsay and other Members would expect me to revise my position and to revise the way I expect the service to behave. But that's the very latest up-to-date evidence and advice, and I'm going to continue to act based upon the science. But ultimately they're my decisions, as the health Minister, about how we keep Wales safe.

Dai Lloyd AC: Like myself, the Minister is a student of history, and, obviously, while he was signing off these regs last night, he would have been watching that excellent S4C documentary on the Spanish flu of 1918, which revealed, obviously, there was a large first peak, then absolutely nothing happened for four months—no cases, no patients, no nothing—and then there was a huge second peak, with 10 times the deaths of the first peak. So, that's what history shows us. But, obviously, in terms of planning or mitigating any possible second wave, testing, tracing and protection is absolutely key. So, can the Minister guarantee now, with all the evidence we've garnered in the health committee over the last few months, the primacy of local public health teams? They're doing some excellent work here in Wales, and it's still basically a public service here. But can he also guarantee that as many—that the testing that's done in our laboratories here in Wales as well, in our hospitals and in our universities, as a public service, especially for the home-testing kits sent away by courier to private laboratories in England, which accounts for why you can't get the result back within 24 hours—. So, obviously, with regard to the contact tracing, getting the result back in 24 hours is absolutely key, which is why we need to ensure that we have the testing capacity here in our universities and our hospital laboratories. Can you guarantee that that's going to get—in terms of 100 per cent? Because that's how we're going to get the turnaround results in 24 hours, and also to involve GPs. The weakness of having a private overlay system linked into the UK is that GPs have no access to those results. We're absolutely cut off. People don't know, and obviously the private sector has no link to the NHS in terms of testing. So, there are weaknesses, and if they weren't written into your regulations, while you were studying last night and watching this documentary—I realise you had a lot on your plate—can you review that for any future regulations? Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: [Inaudible.] Sorry, I've managed to be muted. It shouldn't come as a surprise to the Member or others to know that I wasn't watching the S4C documentary while I was working last night. I can multitask and cook, but I can't watch the tv and do the work that I need to doat the same time.
I've noted a range of the measures that we need to prepare for, and, in fact, the Academy of Medical Sciences report, commissioned for the UK Government about England, is, obviously, largely relevant for us here in Wales, as we look to prepare for the autumn and the winter. And I have made reference to the fact that we do need to make use of the time we have now in the summer to prepare for what may happen. We know there will be more respiratory tract infections and symptoms; we know there'll be more use made of our testing capacity here in Wales, which is why we've built it up now. We'll expect to use more of it when we need to make use of more of it, when there are many more symptomatic people who—as has been mentioned before—will either want to know they have coronavirus and need to continue self-isolating, or will be released by a positive result to go back about their business. So, we will definitely want to maximise the use of our NHS Wales laboratories, and that's why the work that's being done on improving the efficiency of that laboratory turnaround is so important.
We'll need to make some difficult choices, I think, because our budgets are incredibly strained and pressured, but we'll need to find a way to deliver a staffing model that allows a more significant staffing of our NHS Wales laboratories to maximise not just the capacity, practical daily capacity, but actually the ability to turn that around promptly, rather than being able to do that in a way that doesn't deliver the sort of speed that I recognise is important to have effective contact tracing. But we have a system that we've been proud to create as a public service, which is delivering very effective contact tracing with very high levels of success, and I'm very proud of the work that councils have done, together with the NHS, across the country to do so.
When it comes to your points about the lighthouse labs and the way they've been developed—that UK programme has managed to deliver significant extra capacity, and it is what we're using largely with the drive-through centres we've created in conversation with the UK Government, and that has meant that we now have significant extra capacity available to us, and we can protect that NHS capacity for, in particular, symptomatic people who we referred to in parts of the care system. Now, that does mean, though, we had a challenge—. And this is why we didn't go into the UK testing programme earlier, because we couldn't get the data, and your point about GPs being blind to that—well, actually we didn't know at all. We'd have known that people had had tests, but not known what the results were, and that was the position that other countries found themselves in earlier.
We are now in a position where we can both publish the number of tests—you have a unified publication every day of tests carried out in Wales—and we see the flow not just going to our contact tracing system from those lighthouse labs, but it goes through the limb system, which I'm sure you'll be familiar with, but other people who don't happen to work in the health service aren't. That means that it is going back into the patient record. Now, we didn't have that earlier. It is now available to us. So, people who provide care for individuals should see that on the individual patient record, and it will enable us to actually undertake proper contact tracing. So, we've not just got the numbers for the tests being undertaken, but, as the Royal College of Pathologists has advised all of us, it's testing for a purpose, and that purpose is part of how we keep Wales safe.

Finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Testing in care homes in Wales came too late for too many, and its effectiveness as a tool in the toolbox requires care homes to be operating on a sustainably resourced basis. Speaking in the virtual Welsh Parliament on 3 June, I referred to a nursing home who'd written stating that five residents had suffered COVID-19-related deaths, and that Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board had so far contributed not a single penny towards the COVID-19 crisis. The problem was identified in the subsequent Care Forum Wales cheapskate awards that half of the bottom 10 local authorities in Wales for paying care home fees amongst the coronavirus crisis are in north Wales, with Flintshire the worst of these.
Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board said on 15 June in correspondence that the health board is working closely with Care Forum Wales and other health boards across Wales to work with Welsh Government in securing a financial support plan for nursing care and care homes across Wales. But Care Forum Wales e-mailed me a week ago last Wednesday saying, 'Still no announcement, to our ever-increasing frustration.' When are you going to get this sorted, because the care homes are telling me they need this desperately?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I think that question reveals the very sharp differences and divides in views from people on an individual and a local level and the conversations we have on a national level with stakeholder bodies. There is a regular conversation with people running residential care—both local authorities who still provide and commission large parts of the residential care sector, as well as the independent providers as well. And that includes regular conversations with Care Forum Wales. So, I simply don't accept that it's anaccurate reflection that there is no conversation with the residential care sector. There are regular conversations between officials in the Government and local authorities and the care sector itself. And it's also a part of the challenge about the language that we use. I think the cheapskate awards were not Care Forum Wales's finest hour and not a helpful way to make use of the relationships we've deliberately built in Wales, where partners get to talk to each other and continue to have conversations that are challenging—they're not warm and cosy conversations between commissioners and providers, or indeed the Government and Care Forum Wales—and what we need to do is to have a relationship that has a robust and honest conversation. And that's what I think we do have. I don't accept it's been too late for too many in the way we've acted. We'll see the evidence, and I will have to take account of the evidence, once it's there, about the impact on that sector, about the choices we've made and what that's meant in terms of helping to save lives.
I would, though, remind Mr Isherwood that, when it comes to Betsi Cadwaladr, the idea that they've not contributed a penny towards the COVID crisis is simply not factually supportable, not just in terms of the work that they've done with care homes and the testing that's been provided, the way they've used NHS resources to support people, but the way in which Betsi Cadwaladr—as indeed every other part of our national health service here in Wales—has made a significant contribution to keeping people well, safe and alive, and the way that we will call on our health service to do that again through this next winter.
And, as we've heard, this is a sector that has been supported deliberately, our national health service, not just in people clapping outside their doors, but in the real appreciation of the extraordinary efforts that have been made in an extraordinary period of time. From the residential care sector's point of view, it's a matter of fact that there are tens of millions of items of personal protective equipment that have been provided at a cost of now more than £25 million for free to that sector; there's staffing support that's been provided by a variety of health boards to support that sector as well, as they've had staff in difficulties. And we'll carry on in that very practical way to help the sector, to look after some of our most vulnerable citizens, to keep as many people as well as possible, and to help keep people all across Wales, wherever they live—to keep all of us safe.

Thank you, Minister. The next item is the topical question to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, and the question is to be asked by Alun Davies.

The Media

Alun Davies AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's approach to media policy and support for the media industry following the recent series of redundancies? TQ476

You need to—. We still can't hear you, Minister.

We still can't—. There we are. We can hear you—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: There we are. I did unmute myself earlier, but I was re-muted. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay. We can hear you clearly now.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: You can hear me clearly now. Right. Thank you very much to Alun Davies for that question. The media sector is crucial to democracy in any society and the Welsh Government's media policy includes providing support for a diversity of organisations within the media to provide consistent information for citizens, and we deeply regret all of the job losses that may occur in the media sector in Wales in various aspects of the sector over the next few months.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you for that. I think there will be broad agreement across all sides of the Chamber that a free and robust press and media is critical to any country and any democracy—a media that can inform, that can scrutinise, can hold politicians on all sides to account, create a platform for us to talk together as a nation, to reflect our needs as a country, and to share our culture and our histories together. But we've seen our ability to do this in Wales reducing over many years and particularly over the last few weeks. We've seen how Reach plc is absorbing too many Welsh jobs and editorial creation and editorial decisions into English parts of the system, where there is no knowledge of our needs and no understanding of our democracy. We've seen the same thing happen with Newsquest, and, Presiding Officer, as I rise to speak today, we're hearing of over 500 jobs going within the BBC and we know that that will have an impact on theBBC in Wales. I would argue there has been no effective regulation of public service broadcasting for some years. Private media corporations exist to create shareholder value and not to serve the people of Wales. So, Minister, is it not time that the Welsh Government, and I would say this Parliament as well, worked together to create new models that will serve the needs and the interests of people in this country—co-operative models, where we put people first rather than simply profit, and where the media serves our country, and not us serving their needs?
Minister, I also believe there is an urgent need to review Ofcom. For many years, Ofcom has failed Wales and has failed to deliver effective regulation of public service broadcasting, and that failure is to be seen on our tv screens and heard from our radios day after day after day. But, at the same time, Minister, there is a requirement, I believe—perhaps through this Parliament rather than through the Welsh Government—for funding to be secured to ensure that there is a basic access to basic information about our democracy and the laws that exist in this country. I'm very concerned and deeply concerned about the people who will be losing their livelihoods over these coming weeks and months. We need to reach out to those people, to those journalists, who sometimes make our lives as uncomfortable as we deserve. But, at all times, we need a vigorous and vital media and press to hold all of us to account and to inform the people of Wales of what is happening in their governance and their laws, but also to enable us to lead a full life as a nation.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you, Alun. I wouldn't disagree with anything that you said in that question. My first response is to say that I have asked officials to ensure that we have an opportunity to meet as a matter of haste with officers from the NUJ in north and south Wales, because the media and the newspapers, such as the Western Mail and the Daily Post—all of these sectors are impacted by what this company is proposing to do. So, I look forward to that meeting, and I will ensure that I bring a report from any such meeting back to the Welsh Parliament, so if there is a desire to have cross-party collaboration to respond to this situation, then I would be highly supportive of that. In the meantime, we do have a contribution that we have made through our individual funds within Government to support journalism, and we will continue to do that. That is at the community level, rather than the national level.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I have a number of interests to declare here. I'm a journalist by profession, I'm a member of the National Union of Journalists, I'm also a Member of our national Parliament who appreciates—like all of us here—the importance of effective scrutiny of our democratic institutions, and I'm a consumer of Welsh media, who knows how vital it is that the story of Wales is seen and read and heard and discussed by the people of Wales. The idea of key pillars of Welsh journalism being merged editorially with other news organisationsnot based in Wales and not focusing in any way on Wales, should worry all of us. I'm worried, of course, for all the journalists affected, but I'm hugely concerned about what it means for our nation. Will the Minister do all he can to intervene, to push for a rethink by Reach, to push for a focus by them, perhaps not on cutting and running, but on trying to create a sustainable and genuinely pan-Wales news venture within their wider organisation? But also, with the market—if we can call it that—clearly failing here, will he pledge to put in place frameworks and support mechanisms that can help sustain a plurality of independent journalism in Wales?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much for that question. The independence of journalism is crucial, first of all, and I've always had some doubts about state or governmental involvement directly in the media, because I don't think that is appropriate. I've had cause to regret on a number of occasions the unwillingness of media to be independent of their funders, and being independent of Government is just as important—if not more important for me—than being independent from Rupert Murdoch, as has been the case in the past. And therefore, I do commit to seek various ways of operating, but we must seek to operate with haste in this area, and that's why I look forward to meeting officials from unions representing journalists, and I also commit to ask for a meeting with the management of Reach, and I do want to ensure that we have at least two daily newspapers in Wales, in north and in south Wales, the Western Mail and the Daily Post, which are at least national Welsh newspapers.

Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Have you called me?

Yes, I did, Jenny.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Sorry, I didn't hear you; it was rather faint. Thank you very much for calling me. It's good to know that the Deputy Minister is going to be having discussions with the unions on this matter, but I've never been in favour of separate legislation for the media, simply because although local newspapers and local radio and local television have a very important role to play, we still have to rely, for UK-wide news and international news, on many of the organisations that are published elsewhere, which obviously help us stay informed about the world we live in. But it is a sad fact that the UK media is now dominated by two organisations and led by people whose qualification as being fit and proper is definitely questionable. So, it is important to realise that Reach—the organisation that now owns the Western Mail, WalesOnline and the Daily Post, and many other regional outlets—is dominated by Richard Desmond, who is infamous for having made his initial money out of pornography and his far too close a relationship with at least one UK Government Minister. This company had a turnover last year of £150 million and is still expected to have a turnover of a £100 million, yet they are letting people go, cutting jobs even though they've taken the coronavirus job retention scheme. And, of course, the other media mogul dominating our newspaper, television and online subscription services is Rupert Murdoch, and for those who watched the excoriating first part of the documentary on Murdoch last night, we were reminded by one contributor that the top priorities of Mr Murdoch are Rupert Murdoch, Rupert Murdoch, Rupert Murdoch. These two media moguls now dominate the whole of the UK industry, so it's really what can Wales do about this in collaboration with the UK Parliament and the UK Government. It's hard to know how the UK is going to respond given its rather too close relationship with Mr Richard Desmond. And I just wondered what the Deputy Minister thinks we can do to somehow try and rectify the regulation of the media, so that they are not simply churning out nice to have, popular stuff that distracts people from the important task that Government and legislatures ought to be taking account of.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you, Jenny. Media, broadcast media, are not devolved to us, and you know that I've taken the line over the years that I wasn't prepared to see one part of broadcasting of cultural production being devolved when, other areas, it wasn't possible for us to influence them. I think there are two avenues to follow here. There has to be a very serious discussion between the cultural Ministers across the nations of the UK about the way in which media agglomeration has developed even more of a threat to democracy in the last 10 years than even it was before then. So, there is an approach there where we should make the issue of independence of media, plurality of sources, plurality of channels of information a matter of a central concern to us, because as we've all agreed, who've spoken so far in this question, we've all agreed that this is a key thing for democracy.
But, there is also another area of approach, I think, which is equally important, and I'm glad that you mentioned the international connections. We have to understand that we cannot provide properly independent media in Wales on the basis that it is recreated in terms of regional dominance cross border, and this is what is happening in this case. Therefore, we have to respond to this as well. As a Government, we need to have a policy for communications that enables us to have a clear voice—a clear democratic voice—for all of us who participate in the democratic process in Wales.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

7. & 8. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 6) Regulations 2020 and The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) (Amendment) (No.7) Regulations 2020

The next two items, 7 and 8, are withdrawn.
So, items 9 and 10 are next. In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, I propose that the Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(5) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 and the Maintained Schools (Amendment of Paragraph 7 of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 be grouped for debate, but with votes taken separately. Does any Member object to the grouping of those regulations? There are no objections.

9. & 10. The Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(5) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 and The Maintained Schools (Amendment of Paragraph 7 of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020

Therefore, I ask the Minister for Education to move. Kirsty Williams.

Motion NDM7347 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(5) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 22 June 2020.

Motion NDM7348 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Maintained Schools (Amendment of paragraph 7 of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 25 June 2020.

Motions moved.

Kirsty Williams AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to talk about the legislative response that we've made to the COVID-19 pandemic using powers related to the Coronavirus Act 2020. As you and all Members of the Senedd will know, these have been, and continue to be, extraordinary circumstances and our response has had to acknowledge that.
We have worked hard to ensure that the actions that we've taken have been measured but immediate. We've given schools and local authorities the time and space they need to get on with the important job in hand of looking after the needs of learners right the way across Wales.
Making an amendment to the curriculum requirements regulations has allowed us to issue a notice that temporarily disapplies the basic curriculum requirements and associated assessment arrangements for schools and non-maintained funded nursery settings. These statutory requirements were designed to be delivered in a formal classroom-based environment, and they have been disapplied to provide practitioners the space and flexibility to focus on the health and well-being of learners, preparing them to re-engage with learning. We have also published guidance that provides advice on learning and teaching that schools and settings may wish to provide for the remainder of the summer term.
Perhaps less high profile, but nonetheless equally importantly, we have made changes that have allowed us to issue notices modifying the school organisation code, so that school organisation proposals can continue even where schools are closed due to the coronavirus—for example, any knock-on effects on funding or the Welsh in education strategic plans that may have impacted by COVID.
We have also made another notice disapplying part of the changing of school session times regulations, allowing schools and local authorities to quickly make the necessary changes to start and finish times of the school day so that they have been able to safely accommodate more learners to check in, catch up and prepare at their own schools this term.
All of these actions have been completed with the help and collaboration of some of our key stakeholders. Colleagues right the way across Wales, in local authorities, regional consortia, Estyn, diocesan authorities and school governing bodies, as well as parents, children and young people, have been instrumental in our response. I would commend the regulations to the Senedd.

First, Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Members will be aware that these two sets of regulations amend paragraph 7(5) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020, to add a number of existing legal provisions in both primary and secondary education-related legislation to the list of statutory provisions that can be disapplied by the Welsh Ministers for a specified period by notice because of the ongoing COVID-19 public health emergency.Our reports on these regulations are provided with the agenda for today's Plenary.
With regard to the first set of regulations, which I'll refer to as the curriculum requirements regulations for ease, these have been in force since 23 June 2020. Our report highlighted that no formal consultation took place ahead of the regulations being made, nor was a regulatory impact assessment completed.
I also wish to draw Members' attention to the Disapplication of Curriculum Requirements in Wales Notice 2020, which was issued by the Minister for Education on 23 June 2020 to accompany the curriculum requirements regulations. The notice is a form of subordinate legislation, but one that does not have to be laid before the Senedd. Nonetheless, our committee is attempting to monitor these other forms of subordinate legislation that are being made, and as such we have also reported on the notice under Standing Order 21.7.
The notice disapplies various provisions contained in primary and secondary legislation relating to the curriculum in Wales. As highlighted in our report, there is a discrepancy regarding the period during which the notice applies. The dates in the notice itself differ from the dates provided in the Minister for Education's written statement that accompanied the notice's publication. But we have written to the Minister on this matter, and maybe the Minister could address this matter in her closing remarks if possible.
Turning to the second set of regulations being debated today, which I'll call the maintained schools regulations, these came into force on 25 June. At this point, I'd like to highlight an important constitutional matter. These regulations came to force before they were laid before the Senedd. Now, this is permissible, but it is unusual.
Turning to the specific matters raised in our report on the maintained schools regulations, we have again highlighted that no formal consultation took place ahead of the regulations being made, nor was a regulatory impact assessment completed.
We also make, in our report, five technical reporting points that relate to the drafting of the regulations. We received a Welsh Government response to these points on Monday, for which I'm grateful, and I do acknowledge the Government's view on each matter that was raised. Diolch, Llywydd.

Suzy Davies AC: Just to make it clear, we will be supporting these regulations, but I wanted to raise again this issue of timing to see if we can get some movement on this. I noted the Trefnydd's earlier comments, and I'm seeking the Minister's support in following up on that.
The first set of these regulations made under the Coronavirus Act were made on the morning of Monday 22 June and, as we've heard, they permitted Ministers to issue the notice disapplying the usual position as a result of COVID. We're supporting them as they protect teachers and governors, of course, from the consequences of failures to fulfil statutory duties on schoolroom-based delivery. The notice period covers, in the end, the period of 24 June to 23 July, capturing any schools that will be offering a fourth week at least up until next Thursday. However, today is 15 July and, as we know, a significant number of councils have told their schools to finish in the next two days.
These regulations didn't come before the LJC committee until 6 July. I don't know why they didn't come to us on 29 June, but we've had a further nine days between that meeting and the tabling for today, and the result of that is that we've had a Government-made law, not Senedd-made law, in force for virtually the whole period in which teachers and governorswere intended to benefit from this.
As we've heard, no impact assessments have been done, and we've had no formal consultation. So, we've had law in force for weeks that was not made by this nation's lawmakers. Alun Davies and Dai Lloyd may quite well worry about Senedd powers being lost to Westminster, but I'm also worried about how many we're losing to Welsh Government.
So, what I'm asking for, Llywydd, is that made affirmative legislation is tabled for debate and ratification by the Senedd before the purpose of that legislation expires, and I'm asking Welsh Government to consider moving its three-week review period forward by just a few days—I don't think the Act prevents that—so that they can make and lay regulations a few days sooner and earlier in the week, and that the LJC committee has at least a chance of scrutinising and reporting on them the following Monday, instead of over a week later, and that we may even get the Plenary debate on the same week as the LJC meeting, as is happening with the second set of regulations before us today. But, as Mick Antoniw has pointed out, that second set of regulations was made and laid and came into force by 25 June—several weeks ago.

The Minister to respond—Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Can I thank Mick Antoniw and Suzy Davies for their comments this afternoon? Mick, you'll be aware that you are correct with regard to the discrepancy, for which I apologise. The error is unfortunate indeed, given that the notice was planned to coincide with the end of the summer term for the majority of schools and settings. However, I don't believe that we need any further clarification, but I apologise for the mistake.
I'm grateful for Suzy Davies's support for the regulations and the recognition that they are brought forward to protect individual schools, headteachers and governing bodies in the sense that it has been impossible for them, during these three weeks—and in some cases four weeks—to apply the full curriculum, especially when we have been very keen that they focus very much in the first instance on child well-being, mental health and readiness to learn. But that's not to say that there aren't curriculum activities going on in schools the length and breadth of Wales. But I'm grateful for your recognition that this is done to protect governing bodies.
I am aware that there are ongoing discussions between the Trefnydd, the Presiding Officer and the Business Committee around the scheduling of these debates in the future, and I hope that those reach a speedy and satisfactory conclusion. But, to conclude on the regulations before us this afternoon, I'm content that these regulations and the statutory notices meet the required tests for being appropriate and proportionate, given the unprecedented situation that we find ourselves in and I trust that the Senedd will support them. Thank you. Diolch

The first proposal, then, is that the Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(5) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 should be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, that motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next question is that the Maintained Schools (Amendment of Paragraph 7 of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 should be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, that motion is also agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. The Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications and Site Visits) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Item 11 is the next item on the agenda, which is the Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications and Site Visits) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020. I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM7346 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications and Site Visits) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 24June 2020.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to present these regulations to the Senedd for approval. These regulations make amendments to existing legislation that requires a fee to be paid to the local planning authority upon submission of planning and related applications. The purpose of the fees is for local planning authorities to recover their costs for determining these types of applications.
The current fee levels were previously updated in 2015. Since then, various legislative policy and procedural changes have occurred as well as inflation. As a consequence, the current fee levels are moving local planning authorities further away from cost recovery. However, a balance needs to be struck that will allow local planning authorities to recover more of their costs without discouraging potential applicants from engaging in the planning system by significantly raising fee levels.
The amendments made by these regulations will increase fees by approximately 20 per cent across the board, with certain exceptions. I believe that this increase strikes the correct balance and benefits both local planning authorities and potential applicants. These regulations also introduce a fee to determine applications for certificates for appropriate alternative development. This is to ensure that local planning authorities are able to cover their costs against the time and resource required to determine such applications that do not currently attract a fee.
I consider that these amendments will benefit all parties involved in the planning application process by enabling local planning authorities to improve their service delivery to applicants by issuing timely and better quality decisions. Diolch.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I draw Members' attention to my declaration in the Members' interests. The Welsh Conservatives will be abstaining on these regulations. Whilst looking through the explanatory memorandum, I can understand the logic that the Minister has come to a decision over, as these fees have not increased since 2015. To put through a 20 per cent increase in the current climate would seem to be exceptionally harsh when we're looking to encourage small applications to come forward, whichwould be subject to this increase, especially amongst small builders and maybe individuals looking to put a small extension on their house.
I also note that, from the explanatory memorandum, there's only an expectation that any additional money will be kept within planning departments rather than, obviously, ring-fencing it so any increased income would stay within the department to improve the performance.
Also in the explanatory memorandum, the Minister draws Members' attention to the level of consultation and the responses that have been had, and I note that, of the 59 responses to the consultation about the increase, 41 responses were either from Government agencies or local authorities, and only four were from members of the public. I think this does set a dangerous precedent for other areas of regulated income, such as NRW, who are looking at their fee structure, and to set the benchmark at 20 per cent would seem to be excessive at this moment in time. Although, as Welsh Conservatives, we do accept that there is a cost to planning, and that cost is identified, at the moment, as only being achieved at 60 per cent of 100 per cent cost. But to put a cost increase of 20 per cent at this moment in time would seem excessive and, therefore, as Welsh Conservatives, we'll be abstaining on these regulations.

I've no further speakers. The Minister to respond.

Julie James AC: Well, I'd just like to thank Andrew R.T. Davies for his comments. I understand where he's coming from, but the regulations and the fee structure set out therein do seek very much to strike a balance between the need to get applications to come forward and the need for local authorities to be able to cover their costs. And as said in my introductory remarks, this is a 20 per cent increase, but it is the first since 2015, and it doesn't take the local authority to full cost recovery. So, you know, it is a compromise situation between that, and it doesn't increase all fees either.
So, the fees currently prescribed for pre-application services remain the same, for example, and that's largely based on the fact that those fees are based on a more recently established structure and evidence base and are therefore more appropriate. So, we have carefully considered the points that Andrew R.T. Davies makes, and we do think that this is the best structure for the recovery from COVID-19 and for ongoing resource in the planning departments of local authorities in Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There was an objection, and I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

12. Debate: Stage 4 on the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill

The next item is the debate on Stage 4 of the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill, and before inviting the Minister to contribute, I should say—. I call on the Minister to make a statement regarding Queen's consent, in accordance with Standing Order 26.67. I call on the Minister—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the Senedd that her Majesty, having been informed of the purpose of the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill, has given her consent to this Bill.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you,Presiding Officer.There is a—

I do apologise.

Andrew R.T. Davies, I'm sorry, the Minister now needs to move the motion as well as informing us of the consent of Her Majesty. So, the Minister to speak, and I'll call you next, Andrew R.T. Davies. My apologies.

Motion NDM7357 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:
Approves the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the motion. I'm very pleased to open this afternoon's debate on the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill, following completion of Stage 3 last week.
I introduced this Bill just over a year ago. Its purpose is to address ethical concerns by banning the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. To make an ethical decision that reflects the views of the people of Wales, I have considered overall public opinion on this issue. The Bill's development was informed by a consultation that attracted over 6,500 responses. The overwhelming majority of respondents supported the introduction of legislation that would make it an offence for a wild animal to be used in a travelling circus. I'm grateful to all who took time to respond to the consultation and share their thoughts on this issue.
Circuses are commercial operations that exist to provide entertainment. This type of entertainment when it includes wild animals is outdated. Wild animals are sentient beings with complex needs. They should not be objectified or perceived as commodities for our entertainment. Children in particular should be protected from negative and inaccurate experiences that could influence how they believe animals behave and how they should be treated. I want our young people growing up with respectful and responsible attitudes towards all species.
I would like to thank all those who contributed to getting the Bill to this stage, starting with the small but extremely dedicated Bill team in the office of the chief veterinary officer who, with support from colleagues across Government, have worked tirelessly. I also wish to acknowledge the determined lobbying by individuals and third sector organisations on this issue. I'm grateful to the committees and Members of the Senedd for their consideration and scrutiny of the Bill and to the Senedd Commission staff for their support in the Bill process.
I would particularly like to thank representatives of organisations and individuals who took time to provide evidence to the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee. These included the British Veterinary Association, People for Ethical Treatment of Animals, RSPCA Cymru, academics and representatives from the circus industry. The strength of feeling on this emotive subject, from both sides of the debate, was obvious during those evidence sessions. This was also reflected during the scrutiny sessions I attended and the debates we've had here in the Senedd. There has been disagreement about the scope of the Bill, its provisions and definitions. Nonetheless, I think it is true to say there is a good deal of consensus amongst Members on what we're trying to achieve with this Bill.
The Bill, should it become law, will be enforced by local authorities. There will be minimal impact on local authorities, and I expect travelling circuses to comply with the ban. I would expect, in the majority of situations, the offence of using a wild animal would be publicly obvious. I've already committed to producing guidance and will consult with local authorities on the development of that guidance.
A ban on the use of wild animals in travelling circuses in Wales is overdue and will allow for a consistent approach across Great Britain. The Scottish Government banned it in 2018, and a ban in England came into force earlier this year. If passed today, and subject to Royal Assent, the Bill will come into force on 1 December 2020. The passing of this Bill will represent a significant step forward for wild animals in Wales and beyond, and I urge Members to support it today. Diolch yn fawr.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, thank you for your opening statement on the Stage 4 proceedings. As Welsh Conservatives, we're pleased to support the Bill's progress into law. It is a fact, though, that, sadly, Wales is the last part of the United Kingdom to bring this legislation into action, and instead of leading on this, we've been following what, as you highlighted in your remarks, Scotland and England have already done. But, hopefully, with those 6,000 responses, people will have confidence now that the legislation that will come into force once Royal Assent is achieved will protect wild animals from travelling with circuses across the whole of the United Kingdom.
I'd like to put on record my thanks to the staff of the committee and to the witnesses who came before us on both sides of the debate and provided us with such excellent evidence, and in particular the staff who provided such quality research for us to deliberate in this particular area. I do think the Bill could have been strengthened if the amendments that we tabled around training and suitably qualified people taking tests and samples from any animals where there's a dispute had been incorporated within the finished piece of legislation, but I respect the Minister's position, and it's her right to either accept those amendments or not.
We must remember that this Bill will only affect about 19 animals in total, which currently travel with two particular circuses, but that's not to say that if this Bill hadn't been put in place there wouldn't have been a greater number of animals suffering through touring as well with circuses. So, it's important that enforcement measures are put in place to make sure that local authorities feel confident that should, in the future, they need to deploy this legislation, they can, and effectively deploy it. I look forward to the Bill going to the vote and, ultimately, receiving Royal Assent in August.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Plaid Cymru will support this Bill this afternoon. Plaid Cymruhas been committed to legislating on this issue for a number of years, and it's good to see that that will be delivered today.
I will echo the thanks to everyone who's participated, particularly through the committee's work, in ensuring that the Bill gets on to the statute book, it is hoped, in a little while. The only thing that leaves a slightly sour taste in the mouth is that it has taken so long to get to this point. There was a statement of opinion back in 2006—some Members who were here at that time will recall that—and it then took until 2015 for the Welsh Government to agree that there is no place for the use of wild animals in circuses. Wales was in the vanguard at that point, but since then, sluggishness has meant that Scotland has legislated, the Republic of Ireland has legislated, England has legislated, and today we are behind, but we are reaching the point where we're legislating because there is a risk that Wales could become a haven for circuses that wanted to use wild animals if we weren't to take this step this afternoon.
Now, the scope of the legislation is more limited than I would have wanted to have seen. It focuses only on the prohibition of performance and exhibition of animals. We tried to include travelling wild animals with circuses, and that would have been closer to the statement of opinion that I referred to back in 2006, which stated that
'the temporary nature of the transportation, housing and exercise facilities simply cannot provide the space and enrichment these animals need.'
That remains the case, and it will be the case even after passing this legislation. But the legislation before us is better than having nothing at all in this context.
It is clear, as we've heard, that the public want to see legislation, Plaid Cymru is eager to legislate, and I hope that this Senedd too will be eager to legislate in order to prohibit the use of wild animals in travelling circuses here in Wales.

The Minister to reply to the contributions—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I thank Andrew R.T. Davies and Llyr Huws Gruffydd for their contributions. While I appreciate that they are disappointed their amendments weren't accepted, I can assure them both, along with all Members, particularly of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee under the chairmanship of Mike Hedges, that they've made this legislation what it is, and I'm grateful for everyone's support. Diolch.

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on a Stage 4 motion, so I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

13. Debate: Introducing 20 mph Speed Limits in Wales

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Which brings us to the debate on introducing 20 mph speed limits in Wales. I am pausing because I now see that the Deputy Minister for the economy is in attendance, and I invite the Deputy Minister to move the motion. Lee Waters.

Motion NDM7355 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the report of the Taskforce chaired by Phil Jones setting out recommendations on how to change the default speed limit for restricted roads in Wales to 20 mph.
2. Notes the international research which demonstrates the road safety benefits, including a reduction in child deaths, of reducing default speed limits to 20 mph.
3. Recognises the Welsh Government roll out of 20 mph pilot projects, as precursor to a default 20 mph speed limit across Wales, and the future community benefits this will bring.
4. Supports the Welsh Government’s intention to commence consultation on the proposed making of an order by statutory instrument (which will require approval by a resolution of the Senedd) reducing the general speed limit for restricted roads to 20 mph.

Motion moved.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Eighty children were killed or seriously injured in Wales in the last year that we have figures for—80 children, 80 families whose lives will never be the same again. Whilst we have made progress on reducing deaths on our roads in the 21 years of devolution, despite our considerable efforts, there are still 4,000 accidents that result in injuries every year in Wales.
The evidence is clear: reducing speeds reduces accidents. Reducing speed saves lives, and slower speeds in our communities improve quality of life, too. According to the British crime survey, speeding traffic was rated as the most serious anti-social problem. Of the 16 examples of anti-social behaviour people were asked to rate, every demographic rated speeding traffic as the greatest problem in local communities. Fear of traffic also tops the list of parent worries, with children today being kept closer to home than we were, reducing their independence and their freedom to roam and leading to the vicious spiral of increased danger as more people drive their children to school, in turn amplifying health inequalities. As the report points out, child pedestrian deaths are four times higher in deprived neighbourhoods than in affluent ones.
The approach until now has not produced the results we want to see. The process local authorities have to go through to bring in lower limits—the traffic regulation orders—is slow, complex and expensive. Despite millions of pounds of investment, only around 1 per cent of the road network is subject to a 20 mph speed limit.
Today we publish the report of the 20 mph taskforce, and the brief I set the taskforce was to work closely with those who'll be charged with implementing this new law to come up with an approach that will work in practice. I am hugely grateful to Phil Jones for leading this substantial piece of work over the last year, systematically identifying the barriers to implementingthis significant change and drawing on the experience of the police, local authorities, public health experts and key stakeholders to devise ways through.
The taskforce report recommends turning the current process on its head so that instead of the default limit being 30 mph with communities needing to make the case to go lower, the default speed limit will become 20 mph, with a case needing to be made to go higher. This change in the default speed limit is a cost-effective way to lower the speed limit on all residential roads in Wales. With Transport for Wales, the taskforce has developed a mapping tool, which suggests the roads that should change and that would provide the starting point for a conversation with local communities. Crucially, Llywydd, it'll be for communities and local authorities to decide which roads should stay at 30 mph. With the Senedd's support today, we'll refine this approach further through pathfinder areas, where we'll trial and adjust as we go. We don't expect speed to drop to 20 mph overnight. It will take time to change behaviour. But even a 1 per cent drop in average speeds is likely to bring about a 6 per cent drop in casualties.
We will expect the law to be enforced. The police were represented on the taskforce, and I've had encouraging discussions with the police commissioners. But the taskforce also suggests a series of ways to nudge behaviour, too. For example, the report recommends the Welsh Government gets organisations that we fund to ensure their vehicles stick to 20 mph to create a class of pace cars, which will then create a ripple effect. Over time, this will become the norm. Just as with smoking in restaurants or organ donation, I'm convinced that this will quickly become seen as common sense. This is as much about changing hearts and minds as it is about hard enforcement, and we'll be developing a communications campaign rooted in values to make the case for change.
I want to pay a special tribute to Rod King from the 20's Plenty campaign for his determination over many years to create a coalition for change. The first meeting I had as a Minister was with him and my colleague John Griffiths, to discuss how we should implement the pledge made by Mark Drakeford to encourage a presumption of 20 mph speed limits in residential areas. John, too, has been a real champion of this agenda, and it's been a cross-party agenda, Llywydd, with support from right across the Chamber for many years. In this Senedd term in particular it's been actively supported by David Melding, Jenny Rathbone, Joyce Watson and others, and I hope that we can maintain the cross-party basis of support. In that spirit, I'm happy to accept the Plaid Cymru amendment to today's motion. It is right to acknowledge that the enforcement agencies need to have appropriate resources to respond to the change. And that's something the Senedd will want to consider as it sets future budgets.
The investment will reap rewards—lives saved, costly accidents prevented, mental and physical health improved, and the more intangible but equally valuable, community fabric strengthened. There's a lot of detail to get right first, though, Llywydd, and we're not going to rush it. We want to get it right. We plan to fully implement this in 2023. Before then, with the support of the Senedd, we'll need to implement the 21 detailed recommendations of the taskforce. We accept them all and we'll continue to work with our colleagues in local government and the police to implement them together. I'm grateful for the support of all parties to begin this process. Diolch.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Siân Gwenllian to move that amendment, amendment 1. Siân Gwenllian.

Amendment 1—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to set out its proposals as part of the consultation to ensure that enforcement agencies have the appropriate resources to respond to the proposed order.

Amendment 1 moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to hear that the Government is content to accept the Plaid Cymru amendment—a very good start to the debate. Our amendment relates to enforcement and calls on the Welsh Government to set out its proposals in terms of enforcement and appropriate resources for enforcement agencies as part of the consultation.
We are in favour of the introduction of 20 mph speed limits and in favour of increasing the number of 20 mph zones, particularly around schools, but also on housing estates and in other parts of our communities.But the question of enforcement is an important one and is one that needs to be addressed. At the moment, the 20 mph speed limits aren’t being implemented in a proactive manner, if truth be told. The GoSafe cameras are targeted at locations where a high number of people are injured or killed, and that is understandable, but the Welsh Government, in order to make these speed limits effective, should work with the police and crime commissioners, with the GoSafe programme, which is funded by the Welsh Government, in order to agree how to change the enforcement regime so that the 20 mph speed limits are of real value. And I’m pleased to understand that Arfon Jones, Plaid Cymru police commissioner for north Wales, has started to conduct a survey in that area as to how exactly these speed limits could operate.
Having had discussions with colleagues in local government, they too feel that the enforcement element is crucial to the success of this initiative, and if the enforcement level from police is not sufficient, there is a risk that public expectations in having everyone complying with these new speed limits—that those expectations will fall on the local authorities and that that in turn could lead to traffic calming measures being put in place, and there’s a cost element to those of course. Therefore, the Government needs to identify that within the costings of this programme.
Otherwise, and having seen that the Government is willing to accept our amendment, we welcome this proposal and support efforts to implement it successfully. When I was a county councillor for Y Felinheli, I did succeed in getting a 20 mph zone around the local school. I have to say that there was a change in driving habits immediately and far more care was exercised, particularly perhaps because the 20 mph signs included colourful pictures that had been drawn by local children, which included a tortoise and the word ‘slow’.

Russell George AC: I'm pleased to speak in this debate this afternoon. I'd like to start by thanking the Deputy Minister for the briefing that he hosted last week, and I would also extend my thanks to Phil Jones, who chaired the 20 mph taskforce, for the work he put into this report and for his recommendations. From my perspective and the Conservative group's, we would of course support measures that reduce the cases of accidents occurring on our roads. From my own group's perspective, there was a range of support for aspects of the report and, indeed, all of the report, and there was also a range of questions on aspects of the report that still need to be addressed in terms of some other members of my group. But I hope that during the course of this debate some of these issues will be addressed. My own comments as well—I'm going to try and perhaps tease out a bit more information, if I can as well, which I hope the Deputy Minister may be able to respond to in his closing remarks.
First of all, I thought that I'd look at my own local authority area and, thankfully, collisions within 30 mph speed limit areas within Powys are relatively low. Therefore, whilst the research suggests that 20 mph limits will reduce collisions, there will be a smaller reduction, I think, in rural local authority areas. And the other issue as well is that, particularly in rural areas, you've got a higher level of unrestricted higher-speed roads, which, of course, is—there is a higher level of accident rates on those particular roads. In the last five years, Powys County Council inform me that 19 per cent of collisions occurred in 30 mph restricted areas. That's 448 in total. So, another notice I would perhaps point out is that we're potentially going to see an increase in collisions on the amount of people using sustainable travel, which we want them to do, of course, by walking and cycling. So, the trend in that area is also increasing, so I think we need to take into account that particular aspect as well.
The change as proposed would happen, overnight, as the report suggests. So, there would need to be a significant media campaign in that regard, which is also pointed out in the report. But, of course, drivers tend to drive in accordance with the conditions of the road. So, I think this is a concern—that where we may initially see vehicle speeds lower, due to the media campaigns, overall, over a shorter period of time, or over longer a period of time, there will need to be adequate police enforcement of the new limits. And the longer term reduction in speeds will only, of course, come from a generational change—that's certainly my view. We saw that with seat belts, for example. I'm not suggesting we don't do this because of that, but there is a generational change, so that perhaps does put some expectations on how long it may take for change to occur.
I do have some concerns about the unsustainable level of possible requests that may come in for physical traffic calming measures, to ensure that vehicles drive at new lower speeds. I know this from my own local authority days, when I was often asked to intervene in those particular aspects. I also think, from speaking to traffic officials, that there does need to be some robust guidance that's published along with any change as well.
If I can just quickly mention some legal matters as well, which perhaps need to be considered. Not all 30 mph limits have street lighting—some limits are part-lit and have had the restricted road status within the lit part removed at the 30 mph limit, imposed by order. So, if the proposed changes—. That needs to be taken into account. I'm also aware that, for some rural authorities—Ceredigion is one; the Presiding Officer might tell me otherwise—as I understand it, all 30 mph limits in Ceredigion are by order, thus no 30 mph in that county will change should the proposals be implemented, unless the Welsh Government force the local authority to revise the orders in place.
There are just a few other things, if I can. With regard to the report, it seems to be—very often, the report is very much focused on urban Wales; I would have liked to have seen more attention on rural Wales. The report also talked about sub-groups being set up. I would have preferred a sub-group also set up to look at the costings of the proposals—I think that should have been included as well. Because what is the total cost of local authorities, Welsh Government, policing? I think this does need to be known at this stage. Overall on costings, I think it would be important that local authorities are supported financially. I certainly agree with the report that a significant media campaign will be required. And I think that the final say also has to be with communities. I'm not fully convinced that the intentions of the report do need this statutory instrument to be introduced; I do wonder whether existing guidance is sufficient.
I think perhaps I would end with two questions—in 10 seconds, Deputy Presiding Officer. Are we using a sledgehammer to crack a nut with this proposal? And also, what criteria will define success of a 20 mph default? So, I look forward to the Deputy Minister perhaps responding to some of those, I hope, constructive questions and issues.

Mick Antoniw AC: I wanted to make some of the points about enforcement that Siân Gwenllianmade, so I don't want to repeat those, but just to reiterate how important they are to any particular change. There will obviously be consultations and discussions with our communities. I live in a former mining community, and of course our roads were never designed for the volume of traffic, or the amount of traffic that is parked side by side, concealing many access routes.This proposal is essentially about, I think, behavioural change—it is about what is socially desirable in respect of our traffic within our communities. And all I really wanted to say was that I think the proposals will be overwhelmingly welcomed in our communities, where we have density of population and where the safety of parents, grandparents and children is actually paramount.
Can I also say that this is absolutely in keeping with the spirit of the future generations legislation that we introduced, and that this proposal will also bring us in line with many other countries in the world that have already adopted this approach of, basically, community-oriented speed limits?
So, I very much welcome this, but just to reiterate the point that Siân Gwenllian made: that to be effective, it is not just about culture change, but there has to be properly resourced enforcement to make it work. But I know that there are many in my community, those people I represent, who will very much welcome the direction of the proposal here.

David J Rowlands AC: Can I thank the Government for bringing this debate today, because it gives us all in this Chamber the opportunity to scrutinise the evidence against which the 20 mph is to be implemented? I wish to state at the outset that I support 20 mph limits around schools and other vulnerable places. I of course acknowledge that none of us wish to see anyone killed or indeed injured on the roads of Wales, and if the evidence were definitive, then I would support these rules. However, the evidence is far from proven. Indeed, there is much evidence to suggest that the imposition of this speed limit will not result in a reduction in accidents, whether fatal or otherwise, or a reduction in harmful emissions—the two reasons this imposition is to be implemented. For instance, in Bath and North East Somerset, where they've spent £804,000 on implementing 20 mph speed limits, they reported that the number of fatalities and injuries have actually increased in seven of the 13 zones where it was implemented.
The report commissioned by the Welsh Government states that the greatest number of fatalities occurred on roads with 30 mph limits, but failed to mention that the average speed of the cars in these accidents was, in almost all instances, far higher than 30 mph, which means, of course, that the drivers defy a 30 mph limit, and this would imply that they would also defy a 20 mph limit. These lower limits will in no way deter those who break speed limits by substantial amounts—what has caused much of the anti-social behaviour referred to by the Deputy Minister.
Even such an august motoring organisation as the Automobile Association says that councils are wasting money because 20 mph limits are not making our roads safer. I would suggest that such an organisation has far deeper knowledge of roads and road usage than that which could be elicited in a few months' research, whoever was conducting that research.
There's also no evidence to prove that 20 mph limits will alter driving habits. Police forces have, in fact, failed to enforce the limits, believing it would be a waste of resources. They go on to say that enforcement is reactive and should not be used as a preventative measure to achieve vehicle speeds. Prevention has to rely on public support for compliance by the majority and enforcement has to be guided by proportionality. The organisation20's Plenty for Us have criticised reports that have failed to provide evidence to the contrary.
Can I now turn to the supposed benefit of a reduction in emissions resulting from a reduction in speed from 30 to 20 mph? No less an authority than the UK Department for Transport have reported that their research shows that emissions at 20 mph are greater than at 30 mph. Indeed, emissions continue to decline as speed increases until about 50 to 60 mph, and then start to rise again. So, given the fact that vehicles will be going slower through an area and thus at that location for longer, we will have a double-negative effect on emissions, in fact causing greater pollution than was the case with a 30 mph speed limit.
Can I now turn to the implementation of these measures? The report was keen to point out that a blanket piece of legislation, covering the whole of Wales, would make it easier, and therefore cheaper for councils to implement. However, it will be down to individual councils to decide which 30 mph areas will be excluded from the 20mph. In other words, despite the fact that the report says it makes almost no difference to the times of getting from one part of an urban area to another, it is accepted that, for reasons as yet not defined, there are certain roads in urban areas that will not be subject to the 20 mph rule.
The problem here lies in the fact that any given council will, quite naturally, be risk averse in whether a road should remain at 30 mph or not. They will be only too aware that, should a fatality occur on a particular road that retains its 30 mph or maybe even a higher speed limit, they would very likely be criticised or even sued for not implementing the 20 mph. So, we are likely to see a situation where every urban road throughout Wales will see a 20 mph restriction.
Herein, alas, lies another conundrum for our councils. What constitutes an urban road? For instance, in Torfaen, does the road from Blaenavon to Pontypool constitute an urban road? There are, of course, many thousands of such roads across Wales. When we see a blanket adoption of these speed limits, it will indeed be a blanket, with almost every road in Wales subject to this ridiculously low speed limit.
Lastly, I want to turn to the practical aspects for the driver of keeping to this speed limit. Firstly, almost all speed control devices on cars will not operate lower than 30 mph. So, putting on speed control is not an option, even if it is fitted and, of course, most cars do not have this function anyway. So, it is down to the driver to control his speed to 20 mph.
I frequently use two areas, which introduced this speed limit—Usk and Caerleon—and I find that I am constantly monitoring the speed indicator and, given that the other cars in front of me are often breaking the limit by a mile or two, as indicated by the flashing speed-control indicators, it would seem this difficulty is universal. This, of course, has the adverse effect of not monitoring the road as one would normally, thus having an adverse effect on road safety.
Llywydd, the 30 mph limit was introduced when cars had steel bumpers and cable brakes. Today's cars are designed to cause less injury and with braking systems that are far superior to those, even a few decades ago. There's only one way to stop road accidents, and that is for all of us to return to walking. This constant reduction in speed could be applied to our motorways. A 30 mph speed limit on these would save far more lives—

I'm going to have to draw your comments to a close and ask you to draw your comments to a close.

David J Rowlands AC: I have finished now. Thank you, Llywydd, much obliged.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think David Rowlands is looking at this problem down the wrong end of the telescope. It would, indeed, be a good idea if we all returned to walking, because then we'd all be a lot healthier. But I don't think that simply because some people are defying the speed limit at the moment, and therefore need dealing with, and the police are aware of this, we should, therefore, not introduce a default 20 mph in all urban areas, unless there are good reasons to have it at 30 mph. 
We absolutely need to change the culture on this because of three emergencies. One is the climate change emergency. Another is the obesity crisis, which is killing our children far sooner than the parents who bore them—it is that bad. Life expectancy is reducing not increasing. And, thirdly, we obviously have the coronavirus public health emergency and we know that coronavirus breeds better in polluted air. And it isn't just an urban problem, it's a rural problem as well. Rural pollution from intensive farming in, for example, Holland, has proved that—indicates that—more people get coronavirus and more people die of coronavirus in air-polluted areas. So, for all three reasons, we absolutely have to change the way we do things.
We have to encourage parents to understand that enabling their child to navigate their way from their home to their school is an important part of growing up. This is what we did as children—why is it that childrenhave been infantilised, where they are being driven to school long after they are physically capable of getting themselves to school? We simply can't go on like this, and we have to have a whole-community approach to reducing speed, because it's simply not cost effective to try and do it on a piece-by-piece and road-by-road basis, and I thoroughly applaud Cardiff council's commitment to introduce a default 20 mph across the whole of the city. But, in order to make that affordable, we have to make it the default, rather than it costing £1 million in each ward.
The other issue that is really important to understand is that, if we have speed bumps everywhere, because that's the only way we can persuade people not to drive at excessive speeds, it means that it's hugely uncomfortable for people travelling on buses who have bad back problems—going over bumps in a bus is really, really uncomfortable.
So, we have to have a complete sea change in the culture. I remember people shouting and screaming at the idea that we should all be wearing seatbelts, and other people saying that it was an affront to people's liberties not to be able to smoke in children's faces. Nobody would argue those cases now, and nor should we be imposing on children the inability to play outside and to get to school safely—either scooting, walking or taking the bus—because, at the moment, it is the fear of parents that prevents them doing that. It is not the children who are resistant to that. It is the single biggest problem I know that the headteacher of the school where I'm a governor faces: how do we get our young people to travel to school independently, rather than relying on the school transport that's provided? It would be a far better way of using parental income to invest in a bicycle or a scooter than to have to pay school transport costs. So, I thoroughly welcome the introduction of this measure to make it the default in urban areas.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, there is support on these benches for introducing 20 mph speed limits. I know, in Aberconwy, it's been a big issue on some of our rural roads, and our local authority found it difficult to actually go from higher speeds to 20 mph. And, of course, our colleague, David Melding MS, has worked so hard on this issue.
It's a common sense and it's a safe move. A person is seven times less likely to die if hit at 20 mph than 30 mph, or 10 times if they're over the age of 60. A study aimed to evaluate the impact of the roll-out of 20 mph speed limits across the city of Bristol found that there had been a reduction in the number of fatal, serious and slight injuries from road traffic collisions equating to estimated cost savings of over £15 million per year, and that walking and cycling across the city had increased. Public Health Wales has previously claimed that there would be significant public health benefits from dropping the limit from 30 mph.
In fact, 20 mph is being pursued and encouraged in other parts of the United Kingdom and abroad. Faversham in Kent is set to become the first town in the UK subject to a town-wide 20 mph speed limit. All residential streets in Southend, Essex will be made 20 mph. Perth city centre's 64 streets have been made 20 mph for the past 18 months. The Road Safety Authority is supporting cross-party agreed plans to limit speeds to 30 mph on almost all roads in Dublin city and suburbs. Milan is setting the same for 22 miles of roads. Washington DC reduced speeds on local roads to 20 mph on 1 June, and Wellington in New Zealand has agreed 30 kmph for central-city streets. As the founder and campaign director of 20's Plenty for Us has commented:
'The de-facto standard for safer and people-friendly streets is now 20mph with higher limits only where they can be justified.'
Action is being taken globally to implement 20 mph, so I'm eager for us to speed up the process here. It simply cannot be right that, whilst it has been possible to introduce 20 mph limits for many years, only around 1 per cent of the urban road network in Wales is currently subject to them. According to the report of the taskforce chaired by Phil Jones, you can change the default speed limit for restricted roads in Wales to 20 mph, and there are a number of recommendations on the steps needed to achieve this, such as having a target date of April 2023 for the change in law coming into effect, making subordinate legislation under sections 81(2) and 65(3) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, by making additional resources available to local authorities to enable them to consult on, design and implement widespread changes in local speed limits and to provide monitoring data. And that is key—without the resources, it's useless us even talking about it. We need to co-operate with the police and GoSafe to agree how the enforcement regime should be adapted.
I welcome the recommendations of this report and have a particular interest in the calls for the amending of the setting local speed limits guidance. A report I prepared last year, following a very, very heavily-packed public meeting about highways in the west of the Conwy valley, disclosed that local authorities are placing emphasis on the number of accidents, instead of risk and near-misses. This is utter madness, and has meant that we are stuck with high-use, single-track lanes in rural communities such as Tal-y-Cafn, Rowen and Trefriw, and they still have 60 mph limits.
Personally, I believe the guidance and the need to consider 12 distinct factors, not just the numbers and types of collisions, should be enshrined in law so that every local authority has to consider each factor fairly, so that Welsh Government can focus on the serious problems with the guidance on setting local speed limits. We need positive progress on this. So, I welcome the report. Whilst 20 mph would primarily help urban areas, I am clear from my communications on the matter with the First Minister that progress in this area will take us a step closer to help tackling high-risk speed limits in rural areas too. And, as you can see, I've done quite a lot of homework on this, because it's a huge problem and I thank the Government for bringing this forward. Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Just a few remarks from me. Over the years since my election, I've worked with a number of communities across my constituency who have been calling for a reduction in the speed limit to 20 mph. The community of Llanfachraeth is one of those I've worked with recently. I've also worked with schools, including a school in Holyhead very soon after my election that wanted to see more being done in order to safeguard people by reducing the speed of vehicles within their communities. It's that simple. I do support the principle and the practice of reducing speed limits. The evidence is strong and clear and I welcome the fact that the Government has led this taskforce.
There are a few elements or questions that I still have: I do have a concern about the blanket approach of changing 30 mph to 20 mph. I think there are a number of areas that are 30 mph and aren't residential areas, and I would like to see more development of the exceptions that could be put in place, and that is for very good reasons, and the resources that would be available to administer that whilst adhering to this core principle of reducing speeds in areas where people live and children are most likely to be out. I endorse what Siân Gwenllian said about the need for resources to implement and enforce these changes; that's crucial because, from the moment the changes were introduced, then communities would need to be able to see that this was being enforced and that this was being taken seriously.
I want to echo one thing that I've said in the past: I was in Guernsey some 12 months ago and I was delighted to see the speed limit of 25 mph there, which did so much to slow traffic on roads in general there, and I do look forward to a broader debate on the kind of exemptions and nuances that can be introduced as the principle is taken forward more generally. But, on behalf of those communities that have been calling for a reduction in speed limits, I'm excited for them that this is now a step closer, and I look forward to seeing an ongoing debate on the detail, which is important, over this ensuing period.

John Griffiths. Yes, John?

John Griffiths AC: Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to take part in this debate today, and it's really good to see that we've got to this stage with such an important campaign as 20's Plenty, and I would like to join Lee Waters in paying tribute to Rod King, who's championed the cause so extensively and widely for so long, and also, of course, thank Phil Jones and the taskforce,and to thank Lee Waters himself, because Lee has undoubtedly given fresh and added impetus to this campaign and these proposals as Minister, so thank you very much for that, Lee.
As others, my interest in the campaign firstly came from local communities who were campaigning for those speed limits, and that certainly brought home to me the deprivation factors involved, because there were campaigners on roads in local council estates where there had been, sadly, fatalities involving children, where there were roads through the estates with cars parked on both sides—there still are—children playing, and it's so easy, of course, for a child to chase a ball into the road from between parked cars, and, if a car is doing any considerable speed at all, it's very difficult to stop in time.
So, I really do think that, essentially, this is a road safety campaign, and it stands on its own merits in that regard. But there are also other very important benefits from a default 20 mph speed limit in our residential areas, and I think a lot of that is about reclaiming the streets, as others have said. It's about allowing children to go out and play freely and parents to feel confident in allowing children to do that; it's about older people feeling more comfortable walking around their local areas, in terms of their road safety; it's about active travel, allowing walking and scooting and cycling, whether it's to school or work or local shops, and people feeling more comfortable, safe and secure in doing that themselves or allowing their children to do it.
So, the benefits of this policy I think are very widespread: it's about better community life, it's about people getting to know people who live around them to a greater extent. We've seen some of that impact through the pandemic and I think it's something that could be further done, fostered, also through a 20's Plenty policy.
People have referred to enforcement, Llywydd, and I think that, hopefully, in the longer term, it will become self-enforcing to some extent, as other similar measures have been, but, certainly in the short term, there will be a need to make sure the police and others are enforcing this policy properly, and that will have resource implications. But I think it's also about a marketing, a communications and awareness-raising campaign. We do need a strong strategy on that initially, I think, to make sure that everybody is aware of the change, the reasons for it, and, hopefully, they will be supportive of it. But we do need to get key messages across if we are going to have that support and backing.
I don't know whether Lee might be able to say a little bit more about the rolling out of pilots, in terms of the basis on which that would take place—which local authority areas and which areas within local authorities will see those initial pilots.
I'd also like to support what Russell George and others said about rural areas, because we also have a very strong campaign around the A48 dual carriageway in Newport in terms of villages and village roads off the A48, following, again, a fatal accident, and a man, Julian Smith, who sadly lost his daughter in an accident, is leading a very strong local campaign and he's pointing out very strongly that having national speed limits on roads through villages doesn't make any sense at allwhen you have families living there. Sixty miles per hour is just totally excessive and it does seem to be very difficult to get necessary change. There are lower limits obviously in Wales on some of these village roads, but sadly there are many that are still subject to the national speed limit, and it does seem very difficult to get lower speeds on those roads.
So, I'm very grateful, Llywydd, for the opportunity to speak in this debate today. I think 20's Plenty is a very progressive policy. I think having that default 20 mph limit on our residential roads right across Wales will put our country in a very positive light, and deliver real benefits for our communities.

Joyce Watson AC: I've campaigned for many years to increase the use of 20 mph zones in Wales. I first looked at this in 2011, and at that time there were 237 serious pedestrian casualties in Wales, and sadly that included 82 children losing their lives or being very seriously injured, and I think it's those stats that we have to keep in our minds when we're talking about this. At that time, I focused my report onto Ceredigion council to see if they could introduce more 20 mph zones in built-up areas to protect their children. At that time, six schools in Ceredigion were in a 20 mph limit zone, but there were 40 with a 30 mph limit and six schools with a 40 mph limit, and there were five that had the national speed limit right outside their door. So, I think there is a real need and a real focus, and I agree with John Griffiths,this is piece of legislation that stands on its own in terms of road safety, but I do recognise all the other advantages that everybody has built into that.
So, the numbers speak for themselves. Between 2017 and 2019, 127 people were killed in car accidents, but 1,759 people were injured and 453 were seriously injured. That is a significantly high number.
So we get down to does speed make a difference? Well, it does, because if you're hit by a car travelling at 20 mph, you'll have a 95 per cent chance of survival. If the car is travelling at 30 mph, you'll have 80 per cent. You'll only have a 50 per cent chance of survival if you're hit by a car going at 35 mph, and if you're hit by a car going at 40 mph, you've got a 10 per cent chance of surviving. So I think it's very clear from those statistics that your chances of surviving an impact by being hit by a car greatly increase as you reduce the speed of that car, and you don't have to reduce it by significant amounts, as that demonstrated.
Part of the reason, of course, is that the faster the vehicle is travelling, the longer the distance it will need to stop. So, I'll give another example: on perfectly dry roads and in perfectly good conditions, a car or a vehicle travelling at 30 mph will need a stopping distance of 23 meters or six car lengths. At 20 mph, that will go down to half. So, speed, again, is a factor in giving both the driver and also the pedestrian an opportunity to not end up with a serious collision resulting in injury or fatality.
But I agree that it isn't speed limits alone that will solve these problems. There will be a need for adequate enforcement measures, and we will have to come to agreement on who and how those enforcements are implemented.
But the Welsh Government has, over the years, given local authorities in Wales the power to vary speed limits. It is cumbersome, as is outlined here, but we have seen authorities move ahead, like Cardiff and Swansea, for example, when the political drive has been there. We've also seen Welsh Government give money to local authorities to improve the safety outside the roads.
Yet, last year, with the newly built school in Haverfordwest, Ysgol Caer Elen, I joined parents to campaign to reduce the 30 mph speed limit to a 20 mph speed limit. So, my ask here of you, Minister, is that, when we're building new schools, built into their design is a 20 mph speed zone outside that school. It seems incredible to me that any local authority that has already implemented 20 mph speed limits outside some schools then builds a new school with a 30 mph speed limit outside it—and there's already been an accident and thankfully nobody was hurt.
I obviously support what you're doing. I'm really pleased to see that it's back on the agenda, that it is being discussed, and I know without any doubt at all, from everything that I have just said, that it has the potential to save lives.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate. Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and can I thank Members for that thoughtful discussion? I think, with one exception, there was support in principle for the proposal we've brought forward this afternoon. But Members are right, it's the job of the Senedd now to scrutinise the detail of this, to stress-test it, to kick the tyres, if you like, to make sure that this is as strong as it can be, and I'm certainly keen to work with all Members to try and answer questions and concerns they have so that we get this right.
It's the reason why I set up an expert panel over the course of a year to rigorously go through this, to understand how we can make it workable. Alongside the report today, we are publishing an evidence review by Dr Adrian Davis, as well as a report by the Public Policy Institute for Wales, also looking at the evidence. So, the claim by David Rowlands that this is based on just a few months' research and that the evidence is far from proven, I'm afraid is not the case, and I was disappointed by his contribution.
I'm just trying to work through the issues that have been raised. Russell George asked, 'Are we using a sledgehammer to crack a nut?' It's interesting, isn't it, if 800 children a year were killed or seriously injured in any other setting, I wonder what the response of the Senedd would be.FootnoteLink I wonder what the response of the newspapers and the media would be. I wonder if we'd see mass demonstrations. But somehow we've come to accept road casualties and deaths on our roads from cars as commonplace, as something we just accept as a price of doing business.
I notice the Brexit Party have put out a tweet this afternoon saying Wales can't afford to go any slower. I deprecate the tendency by some on the right to try and use this as part of the culture wars that they're trying to fight out here. I know David Rowlands—apart from the issue of Europe, which I profoundly disagree with him on—to be a reasonable man. So, to hear the speech he gave, which started off reasonable enough but turned into a contribution on a radio phone-in by the end, I thought, was surprising.
Rhun ap Iorwerth said the evidence is clear and the evidence is strong. Janet Finch-Saunders made the point it's a commonsense and safe move, and I think the opinion polls bear this out. This is a widely welcomed and accepted intervention.
There are concerns around resources and concerns around enforcement, and I think those are legitimate concerns. At the moment, we spend an awful lot of resources but on engineering, on hard interventions, and the evidence is that we've probably achieved as much as we're going to achieve from that approach. The road casualty reduction figures have slowed and there's now a stubborn residual level of casualties that that approach does not seem to be able to tackle with any great dynamism.

The Deputy Minister corrected the figure in a point of order later in the meeting. The figure should be '80', not '800'.

Lee Waters AC: So, I do think we need to look afresh at our approach. We are going to be continuing to work closely with local government and with the police to work through the practicalities of this, and the pilots that John Griffiths asked about will be developed with them in a range of different settings. So, Russell George, we will definitely want one of those to be in a rural setting. The geographical information system, the satellite mapping that we're using to try and suggest what roads might be 20 and what might be 30 will, of course, apply to rural as well as to urban settings. Russell raised a series of technical questions that I will write to him on to make sure that we do justice to each of them. But, of course, there will be robust guidance, which we'll be working out as a result of the pilots with the WLGA and the police.
He raised a legal question about the definition of restricted roads when road lighting was not present and I'll need to check the legal position on that. But the example of Ceredigion, for example, I understand that they are zones by order; they can, of course, be repealed where they are required. And that's the point of this approach: it's a permissive approach, working with local authorities and what communities tell us they want to do in their settings. So, if, as John Griffiths mentioned and Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned, in rural areas, there's a nuance there that suggests a different approach, we hope to work with local authorities to give them the discretion to respond to the circumstances that they find. This is not a sledgehammer; this is a strategic move but with a degree of discretion at the level of detail to make sure that we apply it in a way that is sensible.
Siân Gwenllian said at the start about the way that GoSafe currently targets resources on areas with high levels of killed and seriously injured, and Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned what she called the 'utter madness' of looking at casualties rather than near misses. And I think that is one of the problems with the current approach, but if we turn it on its head and we set 20 mph as a default, the role of GoSafe and the police then becomes different. And John Griffiths is right: this will, in time, become self-enforcing. But clearly, this is going to take time. This is a behaviour change project, cultural change, over time.
But the figures are stark and the figures and clear: the risk of being killed is almost five times higher in collisions between a car and a pedestrian at 30 mph, compared to the same type of collisions at 20 mph—five times higher. The point where a car is going faster—. At the point at which a car doing 20 mph will have come to a stop, a car doing 30 mph will still have been doing 24 mph. And this evidence is cited in the report, so I don't think we can seriously say that there is weak evidence on this or that we haven't fully made the case for the need for this type of intervention.
There were examples cited of Bath and Somerset where fatalities increased and others where the air quality impact was not certain, but of course these are different approaches, these are zones. And this is not a 20 mph zone approach; this is a default speed limit, this is a whole area. So, the standard will be 20 mph, the exception will be 30 mph. And David Rowlands made the risible point that because cars now have better braking systems, somehow we didn't need—we could overlook the fact that 800 children a year were killed or seriously injured.FootnoteLink Well, clearly, those braking systems aren't effective, David, are they? They're clearly not effective; children are dying, they're dying and we need to stop it, and this is a way of stopping it. And I think the mealy-mouthed comments about 20 mph being a ridiculously low limit, I think says more about the culture war effort he's trying to engender than it does about the evidence. Jenny Rathbone made the point that seatbelts were said to be an affront to liberty and smoking in people's faces was thought to be a right, and now nobody would, indeed, say that.
I'm hoping I've worked my way through the majority of the points that were raised, Llywydd. If I failed to do so, I will write to Members. This is a significant change. We're not rushing it. We've been criticised for taking too long to go about it; we want to work through the details and get it right. The prize for getting it right is high, and I welcome the challenge from Members, and I welcome that as a continued conversation, so, together, we can satisfy ourselves that this is the right thing to do. And I think of all the things that each of us will have achieved in politics, if we get this right, it'll be a significant legacy for our Senedd. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Deputy Minister corrected the figure in a point of order later in the meeting. The figure should be '80', not '800'.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object to amendment 1? [Objection.] Right, there are objections, and therefore I will defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

14. Motion to Amend Standing Order 18.10: Committee Functions Relating to the Oversight of the Wales Audit Office

The next item is the motion to amend Standing Order 18.10—committee functions relating to the oversight of the Wales Audit Office. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion.

Motion NDM7353 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee 'Chair of the Wales Audit Office (WAO) Board' laid in the Table Office on 8 July 2020.
2. Approves the proposals to amend Standing Order 18, as set out in Annex A of the report of the Business Committee.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

I have no speakers. Therefore, the proposal is to amend the Standing Orders. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections, and we will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

15. Motion to Amend Standing Orders: The Electoral Commission and the Llywydd's Committee

The next motion is the motion to amend Standing Orders, the Electoral Commmission and the Llywydd's committee. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move the motion.

Motion NDM7352 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee 'Standing Order 18B—Oversight of the Electoral Commission' laid in the Table Office on 8 July 2020.
2. Approves the proposals to introduce a new Standing Order 18B, and amend Standing Order 17 as set out in Annex B of the report of the Business Committee.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

I have no speakers to this item. The proposal is to agree the motion to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

I am now going to propose that we take a break of no more than five minutes, in order for some disinfecting work to be done in the Chamber. So, a five-minute break.

Plenary was suspended at 16:57.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:03, with David Melding in the Chair.

16. Finance Committee Debate: The Welsh Government's Spending Priorities for the Draft Budget 2021-22 in light of COVID-19

David Melding AC: Order, order. Item 16 is the Finance Committee debate: the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the draft budget 2021-22 in light of COVID, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM7351 Llyr Gruffydd
To propose that the Senedd:
Considers the spending priorities for the Welsh Government’s Draft Budget 2021-22.

Motion moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer, and, as Chair of the Finance Committee, I am very pleased to be opening this debate today on the future spending priorities for the Welsh Government. As this Chamber will know, of course, for some time the Finance Committee has expressed its concern that the Senedd does not have a formal opportunity to debate and, hopefully, as a result, influence the Welsh Government’s spending priorities prior to the draft budget being laid. Last year was the first time we held this type of debate, which was particularly pertinent, of course, given the implications of Brexit and a general election at the end of the year.
In our report on the 2020-21 draft budget, we recommended that the Welsh Government should consider how a debate on spending priorities could be factored into the budget timetable to ensure the Welsh Government was able to take into consideration the views of the Senedd prior to publishing its draft budget. I am very pleased that the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd and the Business Committee have agreed that this type of debate should be held annually.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The upcoming draft budget will inevitably be affected by the outbreak of COVID-19, the end of the Brexit transition period and the delayed UK spending review. Last week, we had a summer statement from the UK Government, which included further funding consequentials for the Welsh Government. However, we still have no forward funding figures for 2021-22. It is clear that, for effective planning by the Welsh Government and to afford the appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny, the devolved Governments’ budgets have a dependence on the timing of the UK budget. Therefore, I and my counterparts in the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly have writtenjointlyto the Chief Secretary of the Treasury asking for an early indication of the timing of the UK budget and an assurance that consideration will be given to the impact of that timing on the respective budget processes across the devolved nations.
The Finance Committee normally holds an annual budget stakeholder event, but unfortunately this year, given the current social restrictions across the country, this has not been possible. This is disappointing for the committee and I’m sure that it's disappointing for stakeholders too, as these events have been very well received in the past. It is a great opportunity to hear early on the views of stakeholders on where the Welsh Government should be prioritising its spending. This is then used by the Finance Committee and other policy committees to identify a number of areas to focus its budget scrutiny on. Instead, this year we have undertaken online engagement to seek views on what stakeholders and the general public think the Welsh Government’s spending priorities should be. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to our polls and surveys. The committee recognises that the engagement exercise was restricted, of course, in scope as the sample used was self-selecting and not based on a representative sample of the population. However, it provides an interesting snapshot of views and we have as a result identified a number of areas that we would like to focus on.
Comments received from the engagement indicated the health service and education were key areas of priority, with one participant stating that more initial investment in health and education was needed to help catalyse a culture of healthier lifestyles to reduce future strain on the NHS and free up budgets in the long term. Clearly, the impact of COVID-19 will be an issue for the Welsh Government in setting its next budget. Forty-nine per cent of participants felt that there should be significant changes to the amount spent for the next financial year and subsequent years as a result of the pandemic. However, there was little appetite amongst the participants to raise taxes to increase the amount the Welsh Government has to spend in Wales, with some saying that reducing taxation would stimulate capital inflow and domestic spending. A positive response was received for increased borrowing to take advantage of record low interest rates, and we have supported the Minister’s request for flexibility over borrowing and access to the Welsh reserve in our recent supplementary budget report. However, 27 per cent of participants skipped the question about taxation and borrowing, and this could indicate that more needs to be done by both Welsh Government and this Senedd to raise awareness amongst the public of fiscal devolution in Wales.
Participants felt strongly that climate change and sustainability should be factored into the Welsh Government’s decisions on spending. Participants believed that there should be a focus on green transport, making it easier and safer to walk, cycle or use public transport, to bring health benefits and reduce the burden on health services. The Welsh Government declared a climate emergency in April last year, and there are clearly opportunities to capitalise on the widespread changes in human behaviour caused by the coronavirus outbreak to use spending in the 2021-22 budget to progress a green recovery from COVID-19.
Last week’s summer statement included some welcome additional funding, measures such as the job retention bonus and support for the hospitality and tourism sector. However, it is clear that there are significant risks to the Welsh economy and more investment is needed as well as a range of policies by the United Kingdom and Welsh Governments to steer the economy out of recession. It is crucial that the Welsh Government has more certainty of funding and more flexibility, too, to access borrowing and reserves to achieve this.
Combined with the uncertainties around how the COVID-19 crisis continues, and uncertainty regarding funding available to Wales, it is all the more important for us to have this debate today. We need to use this opportunity to carefully consider what kind of economy, public services and society we want to see as we emerge from this crisis and what this could mean in terms of priorities and investment decisions in the next Welsh Government budget.
Collectively, we need to ensure that the budget is used as effectively as possible in order to best meet the needs of Wales, to ensure the population is healthy, educated and safe, and that the economy is recovering and thriving. I look forward very much to other Members’ contributions today.

Alun Davies AC: All too often, the obvious thing to do in these debates is to list all the priorities that face yourself or your constituency. Rather than read out a list of areas where I believe additional spending would help Blaenau Gwent—be it education, health, business support, local government or even mitigating a disastrous 'no deal' Brexit, what I'd like to do this afternoon is to do something a little different and to focus on how I believe the Government should be approaching this budget round, and some of the actions that would flow from those points of principle.
Setting a budget today is very different to the process of setting a budget when I was first elected, 13 years ago, when essentially setting a budget simply meant taking spending decisions—decisions about where different areas of budget would be spent. Now, of course, we have to set a balanced budget and we have to look at how we raise funds as well as how we spend funds. And that demands a very different budget process. It also demands that this place acts in a different way. The Finance Committee has been investigating a legislative budget and financial process. I believe that time has come. The First Minister, in his evidence, said the time will come at some point. I believe the time has come today when we should be putting in place proper systems and structures of scrutiny for all expenditure and the raising of taxation. I do not believe it is right that we tax people in this country without passing a piece of legislation that sets the basis for that. We need greater supervision and greater accountability in terms of budget setting, and that means ensuring that we have a legislative budget round established here in statute, probably at the beginning of the next Senedd. And I hope that the Government will pay notice to that.
But in taking it forward, I think there are certain principles that we have to be very clear about. A lot of people have talked about returning to normality after the COVID crisis, but let me say this: for many people who we all represent in this country, the old normal wasn't a very happy experience. It wasn't a very happy experience to be working two or three different jobs for the minimum wage, with terrible terms and conditions. It wasn't a very good experience to be living in poor housing, without any sense of a future that we could look forward to. We need a new normal that is better than the old normal—a new normal where we can catch buses and work in secure employment for a decent wage and decent terms and conditions. But we also need to ensure that sustainability is rooted right through the decisions that we take.
I was very disappointed that previous finance Ministers—not the present incumbent—have refused point blank to include sustainability as one of the key guiding principles of Welsh Government budget decisions. I hope I'll have more luck with this finance Minister than I've had with her predecessors, but I would certainly argue that sustainability is key to it. But secondly, and thirdly also, are social justice, fairness, equality and understanding what the future is going to be. All too often when we set our budgets we look at what was spent last year and then we try to increase it a little bit or potentially decrease it a little bit next year. I think we need to look hard at what the future's going to be. We know that we're going to see significant industrial change in Walesas a consequence of technological change. We know that COVID has already changed the way that many of us behave, and some of those changes are going to be permanent. We need to be able to look hard and understand that future, and then take decisions that are rooted in the political principles of sustainability, of fairness and equality and social justice, and then take decisions on how we spend the money available to us.
But I also want to see tax policy as a central part of this. I do not believe that we can achieve our ambitions within the quantum of funding available from a Tory Government in London that doesn't share our same principles, our same values and our same visions, and we need to be prepared to argue that through a process here in setting a budget.
So, what does that mean in practice? Acting Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to see the Welsh Government investing in people, in places, in jobs, in quality of life. I want to see us investing in the future of town centres, which need to be very different to what they were when I was growing up. Those town centres that I grew up with in the Valleys are not going to be the same ever again. We need to reinvent that and we need to be able to fund that. We need to invest in our communities, so they're places where people can feel safe and where we people want to and enjoy living. We are also seeing a huge number of redundancies taking place up and down the country, and not just redundancies where we see the headlines, but people losing their jobs in small companies and businesses that don't grab the headlines, but together is changing many communities and many people's lives.
I hope that we will—and I won't test your patience, acting Presiding Officer; I'll say this in closing—that the Government can act with speed, agility and with urgency. We do not have the luxury of time available to us, and many of the people we represent do not have the luxury of time available to them. It isn't good enough to make speeches about what we want to see; we need a budget that will deliver what we need to see. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Okay. If we stick to five minutes or thereabouts, I'm going to get everyone in. I've got three more Labour Members who want to come in and I'm very keen to call them. Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: I've got the message, Chair; I will be succinct. Thank you, and I'm pleased to contribute to this debate and, indeed, to follow the Minister emeritus—it's always good to listen to what Alun Davies has to say. It did amuse me slightly when you said, Alun, that you hoped you'd have more luck with Rebecca than her predecessor, because her predecessor was, of course, the First Minister, so I imagine that you need to speak to him as well about making sure that some of those issues on sustainability really do factor in the future.
Having this debate in advance of the Welsh Government's draft budget-setting process is certainly a different way of doing things; I can't remember when we've had this sort of debate, this sort of discussion before. And looking at the agenda, 2021-22 does in many ways seem a fair way off, but this Senedd can have some input into that process now, and I think it's a good move that we do seek to have some sort of input into that.
On the issue that Alun Davies raised about moving to a legislative budget process, this is something that I was open-minded about for a long length of time, but I must admit that as time has gone by the persuasiveness of the argument for a proper finance Bill to vary taxes, and so on, has actually dawned on me as a good way to proceed. As Alun said, this is something that the Finance Committee is looking at now in detail, and it's something that I think that we should do more work on and something that we should recommend as a good way of doing business in the future, particularly as the tax powers of the Assembly bed in and expand.
Of course, the difficulty with having this debate at this time, although we do try to have debates as normal as possible, is the backdrop of the pandemic and the nature of the ongoing situation. In terms of the next budget-setting process for the Welsh Government, much is going to depend on what happens over the rest of this year, over the autumn and, indeed, moving through the next years with regard to the pandemic and whether there's a second peak.
And of course, aside from that, we do want to build back better, an expression that I used earlier in questions, and I think it's a good one.I think it does explain quite lucidly how we as a Senedd, and how the Welsh Government, should be looking to rebuild the economy. It's not just a question, as was just said, about going back to the old normality. We want to come out of this pandemic building for the future in a more sustainable way than we did in the past, and taking the opportunities that have been presented and not just reacting to some of the challenges, which the Welsh Government has had to.
So, the Welsh Government budget should be showing clearly commitments to that process of rebuilding in a sustainable way. The future generations legislation requires that sustainability is at the heart of all aspects of Government workings, including the budget, but too often it isn't. The climate emergency has made this imperative; we often talk about the climate change emergency, but too often it isn't actually an emergency that gets the sort of attention and focus that it should. So yes, these should all be at the heart of the budget-setting process, not just an add-on at the end, but they should feature at the start and throughout. And if the Welsh Government, for whatever good reason, needs to deviate, or feels it needs to deviate from some of those principles, then okay, but we as a Senedd need to be told and it needs to be transparent why that is the case. The next draft budget process has to green the economy as we grow out of the pandemic.
I think broadband—I mentioned this earlier; it's going to be my main point today—is absolutely crucial. Yes, we can improve the road network, yes, we can improve the rail network, and these are all things that we should be doing. But if we actually get the broadband and the digital infrastructure right at the start, then we won't need to be creating that same level of capacity and maintaining that same level of capacity that we have in the past. There are still far too many areas of rural Wales that do not have adequate broadband provision. There have been mistakes made in the past in dealing with some of those contracts, and that needs to be put right. I hope that the 2021-22 budget does feature a real determination, at every level and across departments, to get the broadband infrastructure of this country right, to fill the notspots, and to try to get up to 100 per cent coverage as much as possible, but also reliable coverage.
I will say, just to bring it to a conclusion, Chair, that in terms of some things the Welsh Conservatives would like to see, well, we've long been arguing for the repurposing of spending to create a COVID economy recovery fund. We'd like to see a £250 million fund that could be used to help towns and communities across Wales. There's also a strong argument, I still say, for scrapping business rates for businesses up to a rateable value of £15,000, to kick-start the economy and to support businesses at this time and to allow them money to invest in their workforce and in the future. We've also said that we would create business-rate-free zones, with a business rate holiday for up to three years for businesses that qualify to go into those areas. Those are just a few areas that we think could go into the next budget.
But aside from the actual content of that budget, I think that this is a very good way to proceed. I hope that, in future, we do have more discussions at the very outset of the Senedd budget-setting process, to make sure that the Welsh Government is well aware of the views of this Senedd at the earliest opportunity of forming its budgets.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm also very pleased we're having this debate prior to the publication of the draft budget. This means we're not replying to a draft budget, but putting forward suggestions for consideration. It also means other political parties can produce their own budget proposals. Unfortunately, up to now, all we get is demands for reduced taxation here and increased expenditure there. Can I urge the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru to each produce a budget so we can discuss it as part of the budget process, rather than just saying, 'We want to tax less and spend more'? It only needs to be headline amounts for the major spending areas and any changes in taxation.
This year's budget is going to be different because of the effect of COVID on it. COVID has changed the way many of us work and shop. Is this a short-term change? Are people going to leave online shopping and go back to the shops? Are people going to stop working at home and go back to their offices? We don't know. My expectation is that some will and some won't, but it certainly will be a change. The retail sector has faced large-scale business restructuring—85,000 jobs lost, over 9,000 store closures—but despite this, online sales continue to grow, reaching 21 per cent of total sales. Again, with homeworking: a trend from a slow growth in homeworking to a giant leap during lockdown.
There is a danger the Assembly agrees a budget that will work for last year, but will not work for this year—we're solving last year's problems. The first thing about a budget is what it's attempting to achieve, and I'll just say that we want a green, prosperous and healthy nation. Well, you're not going to be voting against that, are you? But I think that what we need to do—. What are we going to try to do and what do we disagree with?
Can I start with the economy? The provision of financial incentives to bring branch factories to Wales have produced very many unhappy endings. If you have to bribe a company to come here, I can tell you: they don't want to come. They're only coming because you're bribing them and if they get a better offer somewhere else, they're off. We all know of examples of this. Vincent Kane used to talk for 25 to 30 minutes about all of the companies that came and didn't produce the jobs that they promised and then ended up leaving.
I remember a Government Minister saying that we have the best financial incentives for inward investment—probably true. They saw that as a great sign of strength—we were the best. I saw it as a sign of weakness. Put simply, if you have to offer a larger financial inducement than anyone else, then, when somebody comes, they will leave when somebody else makes a better offer.
What sort of financial incentives do they give in Cambridge? What sort of financial incentives are they giving in Silicon Valley? They don't, because people want to go there. Our problem is that we need to create an economy, we need to create a skilled workforce so that people want to come here. I'll give you two examples. Remember LG in the 1990s? The Welsh Development Agency's whole budget was taken to go and bring LG here. It didn't end very well, did it? Compare that with Admiral—a start-up company of seed funding. That's ended up very well. We need to grow our economy and for that we need to invest in education and use research paths and universities to grow the economy. That's what happens in the rest of the world. Why we aren't joining in, I don't know.
Money spent on education is by far the best economic development expenditure there is. With a highly skilled and educated workforce, companies will want to come here, without us having to say, 'Here's the money.'
A number of good things have come during the COVID crisis. Firstly, street homelessness has almost completely disappeared. I, and many others in this Chamber, do not want it to return post COVID. We've had long debates in here, cross-party, including you, acting Presiding Officer, about the fact that we don't want street homelessness and that we should be doing something about it. Well, COVID came, and we managed to. We can't go back. If we can deal with street homelessness during the COVID crisis, then we can dealwith it in non-crisis times.
Secondly, we have provided food to children on free school meals during the holidays. I've been asking for this for as long as we've been here. This has happened this year. It must continue.
Thirdly, what we've seen during the pandemic is just how important local government is and how good local government is and how local government has performed incredibly well during this.
Predictions: the health budget will receive the largest increase and the least scrutiny regarding outcomes. What will health do with the extra money? We need to have health outcomes and health improvements. Every intervention should improve the life of the patient. Too often, an operation is a success, the patient is unable to go home, so has to go to a nursing home. I'm not sure that that's a success, but I'm sure that hospitals and consultants will say that it is because the operation worked.
Finally, we need to protect habitat and the environment, and a lot of this is much more about attitude than about money. A lot of these things can be done with very little money, but real commitment, and I hope the Welsh Government will start thinking along those lines.

David Melding AC: Exemplary timekeeping. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate today. Thank you to the Finance Committee for bringing this motion forward. Unfortunately, because of timetabling in this place this year, I can't be a member of the Finance Committee and I do regret that fact, but I am grateful to the committee for its thorough work in giving consideration to the priorities that that we face in an entirely new context.
As ever, there is a broad range of priorities that have been set out by those who responded to the committee's engagement work, but these are not normal times, and therefore the priorities can't be normal either. We have an unprecedented context, following an unprecedented period of four months, which will mean a lot longer than four months in terms of difficult times ahead. And the implications of what we've lived through, and continue to live through, are going to be with us in terms of spending decisions for years to come.
I do think that we have to be bold in our response to this situation. There are so many individual things in our lives—just look around us—that have changed as a result of this pandemic. There are things that we hope to put behind us as soon as possible, and return to normality, but there are other things that we all hope will remain with us—the positive experiences, the lessons that we've learnt, and the change in mindset that has emerged over the past few months. And that's what I would like to see reflected in the way budgeting happens within Welsh Government and in terms of the scrutiny that our Senedd provides of it.
There are specific things, such as our understanding of the value of local government. As Mike Hedges said, we must ensure that, through our budgetary process, we reflect the fact that we have once again come to appreciate the work done by local government. We must bear in mind that care for others has become a more valuable commodity in all of our minds now. And whilst I and Plaid Cymru have been calling for the adoption of well-being budgeting as has happened in other nations—I've been calling for this for quite some time—there's a different context for that now and I think that thinking about making spending decisions in a way that truly takes account of their impact on people and their individual circumstances has become more important than ever. I suppose that decisions on spending on environmental issues is also part of that.
We've come to appreciate the world around us and the threat posed to our environment in a very different way during this pandemic. So, whilst many of us have been calling for the prioritisation of expenditure on the climate crisis, that has become more important still now. What the research of the Finance Committee has done is to demonstrate very clearly that people want that to be reflected in Welsh budgets. If I remember correctly, 78 per cent of those that responded to the Twitter poll—. Of course, we can't be entirely confident in such a poll, but it does give us a signal that almost 80 per cent of respondents felt that environmental decisions should be driving decisions on expenditure and the budget.
There are some specifics that we could mention and that I would want to see included in a budget that responds to the crisis—things such as an employment guarantee for young people between 18 and 24 years of age; funding for reskilling Wales as a result of this crisis, and the need to build back economically and to upskill our young people to do that; the need for a Welsh renewal fund, billions of pounds, and more borrowing powers in order to deliver that. And I will be encouraging and supportingthe Government in pushing for changes to our fiscal rules in order to ensure that we can make those investments now, in the ensuing period, because this is the time when we need to look at things differently and build a Wales that is fit for the future.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to make a brief contribution in this important and very welcome debate. I think it's an excellent innovation, one I hope we can continue, and I very much hope that the Welsh Government will be listening carefully and taking very seriously the points of Members.
I recognise that the pandemic has been an extremely challenging time for the Welsh Government to make budget decisions. We know that budgets are under immense pressure and I think it's understandable that Governments have wanted to make quick decisions to get money out of the door to make a difference. But that doesn't always mean that those are the right decisions.
One such decision I'd like to pick up on today, and highlight as a future spending priority, is the £7 million that was removed from the mental health transformation fund, which I've raised concerns about previously in the Chamber. And there has been, I think, a fairly worrying lack of transparency about what has become of that money. Now, I know that some of it was allocated to staff mental health because of the COVID crisis, and that, of course, is entirely right—that we should look to support the mental health of our staff who've been on the front line in this crisis. But as I've said before, I feel strongly that that money should have been additional money, and not removed from a vital transformation fund.
Now, Members know that I've been very involved in campaigning for improvements to children's mental health services in Wales for the last few years, and I can tell Members that there is a very long way to go in terms of getting the improvements that we need. Now, that fund, as well as being for children, was also for adults, and I can tell Members that, actually, I think the situation in relation to adults is much worse, and there is an even more pressing need for continued investment in that area. Welsh Government talks a lot about the need for there to be parity between mental and physical health, but as far as I'm concerned, we are a very long way from that point in Wales.
I would have made those points before a global health pandemic, but the fact that we've had this pandemic makes those points even more pressing. This is a pandemic that has impacted all our mental health—we've all experienced anxiety, fear and trauma—but for some people, this pandemic will lead to lasting mental health problems. We've had people who have been shielding and not seen a soul for many months. We've had people who've experienced bereavement in the most abnormal of situations, where they've been unable to hold the hand of those they love. And, of course, we've got a recession coming down the track towards us, and we all know the links between economic recessions and poor mental health, and even suicide. So, I think there has never been a more important time to invest in mental health services. It really is time now, I think, for the Government to put their money where their mouth is in terms of saying there should be parity between mental health and physical health. And, Minister, a first, good start for me would be putting that £7 million back in the mental health transformation fund.
I wanted to make two other points about principles that should inform the budget. I think inequality is one of them. The pandemic has been one that entrenches disadvantage. We've seen that in those who die—almost double the deaths in more deprived communities. We've seen it in the impact on those who've suffered the most, in terms of children who've struggled in poorer families to access their learning because of lack of digital resources, and even the people who've been able to stay safe by working from home. It is vital that the budget recognises that, and I wholeheartedly endorse Mike Hedges's comment—there is no more important strategic investment we can make than in the education of our young people. Has there ever been a time when that investment for our young people has been more important when the future looks so bleak?
And just finally, then, in terms of inequality, I'd like to highlight, again, the issues of health funding. I spent my early years in this Assembly campaigning for a needs-based NHS allocation formula. In the end, the Welsh Government came with up the Townsend formula, which was meant to allocate resources to the communities most in need of health spending. That formula has never been properly implemented. I think now is the time for Welsh Government to really look at how those spending decisions you take are actually implementing on our most disadvantaged communities. I can tell you that as far as Torfaen in concerned, we feel we've waited long enough. Thank you.

David Melding AC: And finally, before I call the Minister—Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. The prospects for the economies of Wales and the United Kingdom are troubling. As the Welsh Government looks at its spending priorities for the draft budget for 2021-2, let nobody in this Senedd pretend that the economic prospects facing the Welsh Government are anything other than grim and of utter criticality to Wales.
Yesterday, the Office for Budget Responsibility updated its coronavirus scenario for the United Kingdom in its fiscal sustainability report. It offers us a dramatic and alarming prospect for the United Kingdom's public finances. The Office for Budget Responsibility assumes that 1.8 million have already lost their jobs, and unemployment is 9 per cent, compared to the official figure of 3.9 per cent. This rate peaks at 10 per cent as the furlough scheme ends in the upside scenario, 12 per cent in the central scenario, and 13 per cent in the downside scenario. So, for the people I represent in the communities of Islwyn, this is a frightening prospect.

Rhianon Passmore AC: The COVID-19 pandemic is not yet over and a second spike is deemed probable, and, as we look to the horizon, we now see an economic hurricane fast approaching, and it is my duty as the representative of proud Gwent Valleys communities such as Aberbargoed, Newbridge, Crosskeys and others to demand that the Senedd supports this Welsh Government in its determination to safeguard the people of Wales, and I also welcome today's funding announcements.
Opposition Members have previously remarked to me that they think 'austerity' is my favourite word, as I use it a lot, but it's because I despise the policies of austerity, because they were chosen out of choice and they have caused real harm and real inequality. The UK Tory Government of Cameron and Osborne have callously destroyed real lives in Islwyn for no return and for no benefit, and now marvellous magical money trees—whole forests—have now materialised. But what lies economically ahead now is a vast potential danger and harm to Wales.Through the 2008 recession, the largest quarterly shrinkage in gross domestic product was 2.1 per cent. In the three months to May, gross domestic product has shrunk by an incredible 19.1 per cent. Outside of this glowering unemployment data and the predictions due to C-19, we as a nation face also the very live and real issue of EU exit under 'no deal' terms ever likely and the predicted cliff-edge trade drop-off and parallel export tariff rises for Welsh business, all this leading to further predicted additional general downturn in both export and trade.
Despite the Welsh vigorous international trade discussion negotiation and exploratory talks, we still have heard nothing from the UK Government in regard to the shared prosperity fund for lost EU funds. Such serious macro-economic issues need an infrastructural mechanism for Wales to participate, as has been said, with parity of esteem, regularly and consistently within a mature inter-governmental devolved nation interface with the UK Government. This is still, very sadly, lacking.
As a member of the Senedd's Finance Committee, I welcome the transparent and frank way in which the finance Minister, Rebecca Evans, engages with the work of the committee and I also will applaud the effectiveness of the UK Government's employment subsidy schemes. And whilst I understand that the Chancellor has to plan for winding down the employment subsidy schemes, it is imperative that they are wound down when it is clear the virus is no longer a danger to public health. However, we cannot at all be certain that the pandemic will no longer be a significant threat in October, when the coronavirus job retention schemes end. We know what is probable.
I support the instincts and actions of the Welsh Labour Government that seeks an interventionist approach to support businesses, communities and individuals in Wales, as shown by the Welsh economic resilience fund and its second phase roll-out. It is encouraging to see that the UK Chancellor also intends to effectively replicate the Welsh Government's Jobs Growth Wales plan in his plan for jobs.
Acting Presiding Officer, on behalf of the communities of Islwyn, I urge the Welsh Labour Government to stick to its interventionist socialist principles to guide its draft budget and to hold to account the UK Tory Government to the scale of the real challenges that lie ahead for us all. With economic output only rising by 1.8 per cent in May, as opposed to the expected rebound of 5.5 per cent, it is no wonder economists like Thomas Pugh at Capital Economics are quoted as saying that there is a real risk that the nascent recovery will peter out in the second half of the year as unemployment rises and Government support fades.
Despite the most generous package of COVID-19 business support across the four nations of the UK, we in Wales are now staring in the face of some truly wicked issues of a 'no deal' exit and the post C-19 recovery. We also face, as has been mentioned, a substandard fiscal arrangement based on need with the UK Government and a lack of a mature interface with the UK Government. Wales and the UK need appropriate and mature inter-governmental mechanisms, and not ad hoc top-down sweeties thrown from the table, to tackle strategically the consequent levels of unemployment not seen in Wales since the 1980s. The Welsh Labour Government will continue to work—

David Melding AC: Rhianon, you're over six minutes, so I think that is a natural conclusion. So, I call the Minister for Finance, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: I really welcome the opportunity today to look ahead as we consider how best to stabilise our economy and public services and reconstruct our society on a new basis, and I'm really pleased to have had this early opportunity to hear ideas that you know I will consider very seriously, and I know that we also share many of the same goals in securing Wales's recovery from this pandemic, and the digital survey conducted by the Finance Committee is a very important contribution to that debate.
Before I outline the considerations that are shaping our plans, we should acknowledge the extraordinarily difficult circumstances that we face and the scale of the financial challenge as we look ahead. We're in the deepest recession in living memory, with the labour market yet to see the worst impacts once the UK Government's furlough scheme comes to an end. It's now well evidenced that the pandemic is having a disproportionate impact. The scarring from unemployment alone could impact young people, the lowest paid, disabled people and people from BAME backgrounds worst.
We face the UK leaving the EU without a comprehensive free trade deal, which would be deeply damaging in normal circumstances, and anything less than a deal will compound pandemic damage and weaken public finances. We must also continue to respond to the climate emergency and the decline in biodiversity. The outlook for public finances reflects this context and, as Rhianon Passmore has said, the OBR's new fiscal sustainability report, published just yesterday, provides a really sobering reminder of the economic and fiscal challenges that we face. The report showed the UK is on track to record the largest decline in annual GDP and the highest public sector net borrowing in peacetime in at least 300 years. Rhianon Passmore described the situation as 'grim', and I wouldn't disagree with her on that.
While the Chancellor's statement last week included some welcome announcements, it didn't provide the significant boost for public services that we were hoping for, or the fiscal tools that we urgently need. Robust health, social care and local government services will be absolutely critical to a sustained recovery and this is a theme that is reflected in the Finance Committee's digital engagement and our own national survey. And, of course, Lynne Neagle set out extremely clearly the impact that the crisis has had on mental health, and those mental health services will need to be there for people as we come out of the crisis.
In terms of funding this year, I really have to set the record straight, and the claim that Wales has received an extra £500 million from the measures announced by the Chancellor last week is nothing short of misleading. The reality is that we will receive only £12.5 million in new revenue consequentials as a direct result of the measures announced in the economic update, and no additional capital funding. We have so far received around £2.8 billion in consequential funding from the UK Government, with a large part already committed as part of our initial response to the pandemic. We simply do not have enough money to do all of the things that we would like to do or even all the things that we'd planned to do. The scale of the financial challenge that we are facing will be a key issue for discussion at the finance Ministers' quadrilateral in the coming week, and I will also be pressing for clarity on the UK Government's plans for the long-promised comprehensive spending review.
In anticipation that we will not know our settlement for 2021-22 until late autumn, we have already signalled that it may be possible that we will not be able to publish our own budget until the end of the next term. I will write to the chair of the Finance Committee after the quadrilateral meeting to update on the consequentials we have received since the supplementary budget was tabled.
Turning to our early budget preparations, we are committed to building aprosperous Wales out of this pandemic. The Counsel General is bringing together our strategy for reconstruction and our preparations will align with this work, and you will have seen that the joint statement that was published yesterday by myself and the Counsel General set out the principles that will be guiding us.
We'll be building on the foundation established when we set our plans for 2021 for a more equal, prosperous and greener Wales. We want to deliver a green recovery that will sustain Wales into the future, building on the £140 million capital package in decarbonisation and protecting our wonderful environment. And I know that this is a concern that the Chair of the Finance Committee has recognised this afternoon, and it's also been recognised very much by the people who took part in the committee's engagement.
I want us to find new ways of delivering capital investment in infrastructure to create jobs, building on our ambitious, Wales-wide investment plans, and I've heard this afternoon what Nick Ramsay has said in regard to some of those issues. My early listening to stakeholders more widely says that they want to see us continuing to focus on housing, and building on the £2 billion that we've already invested over this Assembly—over this Senedd term—on good quality, affordable housing, which is already invested in new social housing, alongside delivering the necessary energy efficiency retrofits within existing housing stock.
I liked Mike Hedges's warning against making a budget for last year, and I think that so much has changed just in the past few months, hasn't it? The changes just since our budget just four months ago I think bear that out. Our economic resilience fund has already supported more than 9,000 businesses, and it's safeguarding over 77,000 employees' jobs. And I think that what I hear this afternoon is that colleagues want us to move this up into a new gear, with a focus on helping businesses, and particularly those in low carbon sectors, those that support our homegrown companies, in order to create and safeguard jobs, and you want to see a really strong focus on skills and employability, and you want to see us do everything that we possibly can to give young people the best possible chance.
As part of our engagement plans, we also will continue to ensure that there's a national conversation, which the Counsel General has already started, and that will help us inform the hard choices that we will no doubt have to make. It's already clear that we must go beyond business as usual and focus on change and innovation. Coronavirus has changed our world, and, at the end of the EU transition period, that will add to the upheaval. But we have an opportunity that is there for us to shape a recovery that is aligned to our values. And Rhun ap Iorwerth talked about the way in which the pandemic has changed the way in which we value things, and I'm really pleased that Welsh Government is a member of the network of well-being budgeting nations, and we're also seeking to influence the UK Government's work to review the UK Treasury's Green Book, and we want to see more of a focus on how we value—how we put value on social outcomes and environmental outcomes there.
So, I'll be considering the points made today in shaping our plans, and will be really pleased to update Members on our progress in the autumn. Alun Davies referred to the decision-making process, and very shortly I look forward to launching a consultation on a potential finance Bill on tax legislation, which could be taken forward in the next Senedd, and I know that that's something that the Finance Committee has also expressed a particular interest in. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Minister. Before I call the Chair of the committee, I do have one Member who would like to make a short intervention. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer, and I'd like to speak up for the humble footpath, because what people have discovered during the coronavirus, for all its challenges, is actually the joy of walking on their local footpaths. It really has helped with issues around mental health as well and mental well-being, and it'll be the same going forward. But, because of the years of austerity, between 2014-15 and 2018-19, the budgets for footpath maintenance have reduced by 22 per cent. We now spend 79p per person in Wales; we should we spending about £1. We used to be—we had the reputation of being the leader in terms of our maintenance of footpaths amongst all the nations. So, it's a small ask, but, in the country with the patron saint of small things that are very important, I would say to the Minister: in green infrastructure, in environmental spending, let's put the best foot forward and put the money into footpath maintenance for our local authorities and rights of way—it's good for mental health, good for so many things. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much. It was worth waiting for. I now call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much,acting Presiding Officer, and may I thank everybody else who has participated?

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I was going to start by saying that this isn't a debate about a shopping list of investment items. But, of course, people obviously feel very strongly about various different fields. But, this debate is not a sort of extended letter to Santa Claus, as Alun Davies may have suggested at the outset.
This is an opportunity, of course, for us to consider that cultural shift from a situation where we’ve been distributing money and deciding how we spend money, to deciding how we’re going to generate funding and finance as well by raising taxes. That change will mean a change of mindset, as is happening in this evolutionary process that we are going through as a Senedd, but that also needs to be reflected constitutionally, perhaps in the way in which we introduce and present the fiscal process in a broader sense. And, of course, the committee has been looking at the legislative process around the budget, and that will be the subject of a report that will be published soon, and will obviously be the subject of discussions and debates in the autumn.
Sustainability. In Welsh, there are three Cs that have emanated from this debate. It might not work in translation. However, sustainability has certainly come through in almost all of these contributions; social justice has been prominent; and equality. I think that that message is a silver thread that must run through all the Government's considerations when it comes to preparing its budget, particularly in the context of the well-being of future generations Act and that change in interpretation, in the discourse around what truly represents value for money when we're looking at the way in which this Government spends its budget.
Mike Hedges is quite right in saying that COVID has changed everything. We know that. And as he said, last year’s budget is certainly not going to work this year. I acknowledge that investment in education, of course, is one of the most powerful tools that we have in addressing the economic recovery that we will need to stimulate after all that has happened.
It’s right to say that this pandemic has shown us what is possible when the political will exists to accomplish things, in the context of homelessness certainly. Who would have thought, if politicians had decided that we were going to address homelessness in the way in which it has been done over the past months, we would of course have arrived at where we are much sooner.
He ventured to get his crystal ball out and said that health would see the greatest increase in its budget, and perhaps the lowest level of scrutiny. Well, we shall see, we shall see, because perhaps that’s what’s happened in the past.
Rhun was right in reminding us of the role of local government and the need for a budgetary process that looks at well-being, which should be central to our considerations. And it then follows that we should consider some of the fields that Lynne Neagle referred to from the point of view of mental health and what’s happened to the mental health transformation fund. Certainly, this pandemic has intensified the need for support for mental health issues, never mind the economic downturn that will follow and make a difficult situation worse.
The level of the challenges that this pandemic has highlighted, the economic recession that will follow, and we’ve heard many times today about the challenges that will follow our departure from the European Union at the same time—all of these together mean that we need an extremely ambitious response from Welsh Government when it comes to setting its budget for next year. Every penny has to work as hard as possible.
I share Rhianon Passmore’s frustration when she alluded to how slowly the details regarding the shared prosperity fund have been coming out, which is of course a theme for us as a committee, and others haveraised it here over the last couple of years. Because we know that the more assurance that we have on what the budget is, how much it is and what its intended purpose is, and the earlier that we get that information, then it stands to reason that the impact and influence of that budget will be much more effective.
The Minister was right to say that we live in extreme times and it’s quite exceptional in my view that the Secretary of State of Wales claims that an additional £500 million has come to Wales and that the Minister for finance in Wales is saying that, truth be told, it’s only £12.5 million of consequential revenue. The Secretary of State for Wales appeared before the committee earlier this week and we raised the point with him: 'Well, what does that tell us if you get two such contrasting interpretations? What does that tell us about the system that we have at present?'
And as Mike Hedges reminded us in the committee, the challenge is, 'Show us your workings', and not just to ask that of the Secretary of State, but to ask that of both Ministers. That is, we must move from there to a position where there is much greater transparency for the people of Wales as regards the impact of the consequential investmentsthat come from London to Cardiff, and that is something that we all must work harder on.
However, whatever the level of the budget, there are difficult and hard decisions ahead for the Government in the ensuing year, and I hope that this debate has helped the Minister and the Government to weigh up those priorities whilst of course they prepare the draft budget.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any Member objecting. So, the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

17. Children, Young People and Education Committee Debate: 'Impact of COVID-19 on children and young people'

David Melding AC: Item 17 is the Children, Young People and Education Committee debate on the impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on children and young people in Wales. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Lynne Neagle.

Motion NDM7354 Lynne Neagle
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Children, Young People and Education Committee Interim Report, 'Impact of COVID-19 on children and young people', which was laid in the Table Office on 8 July 2020.

Motion moved.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. 'Children have suffered collateral damage during the pandemic.' Those were the words of Dr David Tuthill of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health when he gave evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee recently.
As a committee, we recognise that children and young people currently appear to be less susceptible to the virus than adults, but there is no doubt that the wider effects of COVID-19 and the measures taken to manage it have impacted their live hugely: the closure of schools and youth clubs; restrictions on play and on young people socialising; the impact of the virus on family members; and frightening death figures.
When Wales entered lockdown, the committee announced our intention to look closely at the impact of COVID-19 and the measures adopted to manage it on children and young people in Wales. We in Wales place a particular emphasis on children's rights and for a very good reason. Children do not vote, children do not have trade unions to speak on their behalf, and children have been largely hidden in this pandemic. On this basis and in light of our belief that managing the impact of COVID-19 on children and young people needs to be a clear priority for the Welsh Government and public bodies, we wanted to make sure that all Members of the Senedd have an opportunity to discuss these issues before the summer recess.
Approaching the next phase of managing the pandemic with children's rights at the forefront of our minds is a key priority for us and one we are committed to pursuing. That's why we have scheduled today's debate. We want to make sure that children are not the hidden victims of this public health crisis.
Turning now to the committee's approach to scrutiny, we realise that things have necessarily moved quickly to manage this pandemic, and we wanted to make sure that our scrutiny was timely and meaningful, so we've engaged in regular correspondence with Welsh Ministers. I would like to place on record our thanks to all those who've taken the time, often in the most difficult of circumstances, to share their experiences with us. All your views will be published and will inform our work going forward. In particular, I would like to thank the children and young people who've given us their questions, which I've been able to put directly to witnesses in committee. It has enabled us, in a small way, to ensure that children and young people's voices are directly heard in our committee.
As Chair, I will focus my contribution on the main themes that we've focused on in recent weeks and I know that other Members will speak in more detail about each. Turning first to education, throughout the pandemic, we've heard regularly from the Minister about her plans for schools. We welcome last week's announcement that, based on scientific advice and subject to a continued decline in community rates of infection, all children will return to school in September.
We know that while some pupils have had excellent support for their learning at home from their school's staff and their parents and carers, for many children and families this has been a really difficult time. These difficulties have ranged from challenges with technology and broadband to parents and carers having to constantly juggle work and home lives. The support children have had in their home learning has been too variable, with some children having high-quality face-to-face remote contact with teachers and live lessons, and other children having none at all.

Lynne Neagle AC: Most importantly of all, we also know that for some children and young people, this has been a really isolating experience. They've missed their friends, they've missed their families, and they've missed vital milestones like exams, school leavers' celebrations, proms, to name just a few.
We noted our disappointment that the Welsh Government's preferred option of taking an earlier school summer holiday and returning in August could not be agreed with trade unions. We are also very disappointed that, despite the hard work of the Minister, school leaders and staff, the fourth week proposed for schools to check in, catch up and prepare children for the autumn term has not happened in many parts of Wales.
Given the very real possibility of a second wave of coronavirus in the autumn, it is crucial that lessons are learned from the recent challenges agreeing arrangements for the return to school. When schools closed in March, it was an emergency, but it will not be an emergency in the autumn. Children's well-being must be at the centre of decisions relating to schools, and we urge the Welsh Government and the sector to work together to be adaptable, bold and innovative in the face of what remains a global pandemic. Children across Wales must have consistently high-quality contact with their teachers, and opportunities to progress their education must be maximised for all children in Wales. This will also enable schools to play their vital part in the whole-system approach to supporting the mental health and well-being of children and young people that I am so pleased is being rolled out now in Wales.
The visibility of, and support available for, our most vulnerable children has been a major cause of concern for us. Schools are a crucial safety net for many children, and we've been really concerned by the relatively low numbers of vulnerable children who've been attending school hubs, despite the Government's efforts. While we welcomed the range of steps taken and the cross-governmental approach adopted to support vulnerable children, we remain concerned that important and potentially grave issues may have been missed because of children being unseen during this period.
It is also crucial to recognise that many children may actually have become vulnerable during lockdown. For too many children, home is not a refuge. We've also spoken directly with children and young people in care and those in the BAME community to learn about their experiences of COVID, and we believe that, in the next phase of managing the pandemic, more attention is needed on how we support the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society, many of whom have been shown to be disproportionately affected by the virus. The committee believes that vulnerable children and those at risk of becoming vulnerable due to the pandemic must be a priority. Children have been largely hidden and voiceless in this pandemic, and it is incumbent upon all of us in this Chamber to be their voice.
I mentioned, in my opening remarks, that children and young people have, mercifully, been less susceptible to the virus than adults. Nevertheless, the impact on their mental health has been a huge concern. It is clear from the evidence we've received that many of the feelings young people have been experiencing, such as anxiety, stress and loneliness, are a natural response to the pandemic. There is a very important balance to be struck between recognising and supporting mental health problems and not medicalising entirely natural responses to a pandemic that is frightening and traumatic for us all. But the importance of children and young people knowing where they can go for help is clear and even more vital when familiar places such as schools and doctors' surgeries are less accessible.
The committee believes this makes the implementation of our 'Mind over matter' recommendations more important and urgent than ever. Welsh Government must urgently address the gaps in services for those children and young people who need support but who don't meet the threshold for child and adolescent mental health services—the so-called missing middle. We call on Welsh Government to continue to prioritise implementation of all our 'Mind over matter' recommendations, and we will return to our follow-up work on that inquiry at the earliest available opportunity.
In many circumstances, particularly in relation to mental health, face-to-face interaction remains a vital component of support. Service design must have children and young people at the very centre and must recognise individual needs. One size does not fit all.
As a committee, we were deeply concerned that while the physical health needs of the population were necessarily a priority in the early stages of the pandemic, we were told services to support children's mental health and well-being were exposed to the risk of deprioritisation. Recognising the very real possibility of a second wave, Welsh Government must set out the clear steps it will take to ensure that children's mental health services are protected and funded sufficiently to avoid the long-term consequences that would follow from a lack of specialist support.
Turning now to further and higher education, evidence presented to us highlighted the deeply worrying financial impact of losses of student fees and other university income, the increased risk of university insolvency and the considerable likelihood of staff redundancies. We've heard concerns that the Welsh Government have not allocated additional funding to providers or the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales for the 2020-21 academic year, and there are currently no publicly stated plans to do so. We have also heard concerns that there are currently no plans for any additional Government financial allocations of support for students who may be experiencing hardship because of the pandemic, and uncertainty also remains about how courses will be delivered and what the blend of online and face-to-face teaching and assessment will be. For further education, blended learning and ensuring that staff get the professional learning they need to deliver this were raised with us as challenges.
In closing, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, closely monitoring developments over the summer will be a priority for the committee. We intend to continue timely and constructive scrutiny of the response to COVID to ensure that children and young people are at the heart of all decisions. We are conscious that the return to school in September will need to be managed carefully and safely, but the committee has been clear in its view that opportunities for children and young people to have face-to-face contact with staff must be maximised for their physical and mental well-being, as well as for their education. The First Minister has been clear throughout this pandemic that there is more than one harm from coronavirus. We agree and we call on the Welsh Government to ensure that mitigating the harm and collateral damage to children from this pandemic is a top priority. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Whilst we as a committee have acknowledged that children and young people appear less susceptible to the virus than adults, serious concerns persist. A recent national engagement survey found that nearly 50 per cent of people are very or extremely concerned about children catching COVID-19. The virus has caused considerable concern for children also. Forty-one per cent of children and young people polled by YouGov said they were more lonely than before lockdown, and more than a third said they were more worried, more sad or more stressed. These findings are supported by the Coronavirus and Me survey, which notes that only 37per cent were not worried. Such data goes to show just how important our work as a committee is, and I've got to pay tribute to our Chair, Lynne Neagle.
Referring to the interim report and the letters it contains, I must note my concern at the amount of time it has taken Ministers to respond—the letter dated 12 May answered on 4 and 8 June, the letter dated 27 May answered 30 June. Frustratingly slow action by the Welsh Government is also clear from the content of those responses. On 4 June, the Minister for Education advised that, almost two months since lockdown, the guide for parents of education-other-than-at-school pupils and pupils with ALN had not been published, and the guidance on risk assessments in relation to special educational needs pupils had not been published. I am extremely worried about the impact of COVID-19 on SEN children. The Welsh Government know that providers are facing significant difficulties in meeting needs, particularly in relation to arranging provision specified in a statement. In fact, I wrote an urgent letter to the Minister for Education about SEN children and school transport, highlighting the possibility that the Welsh Government has a transport policy that discriminates by giving mainstream children priority. Almost a month on, I have received a letter from Lee Waters MS advising that he has asked officials to look into the issue and will respond to me again shortly.
Equally worrying is the response to committee, dated 13 June. Whilst it is noted that the number of vulnerable children attending school is encouraging, the reality is very different. During the week of 15 June, just 6.3 per cent of all vulnerable children attended school. In fact, I believe the Welsh Government is being slow to support our vulnerable children. As of 30 June, we were advised that it would be 6 July when a guide to support practitioners to identify harm, abuse and neglect would be published. The same day would see the launch of the Together We Can Keep People Safe campaign, and that campaign would only run until 16 August. Why has it taken so long to launch this campaign? We knew the serious issues early on. On 27 March, Childline reported unprecedented demand in the number of counselling sessions. The NSPCC reported that calls about children facing potential emotional abuse rose from 529 to 792 in the first month since lockdown, and I even raised the need for a new online campaign encouraging children and young people to self-refer for counselling if they are struggling, in a virtual meeting—I raised that with Julie Morgan MS. Not enough was done quickly to ensure that children knew where to turn for help. In fact, the national survey by Barnardo's found more than half of children and young people are unhappy with the information available to them. We should listen to their voices and act on the recommendations in the 'Mental Health and COVID-19: In Our Own Words' report.
This brings me to the final point I wish to make today—that not enough has been done to protect our children's rights, including the right to education. The Welsh Government must ensure that children's rights impact assessments are carried out, and I maintain that an urgent inquiry should also be established so to consider whether recent decisions have adhered to human rights legislation. We can learn from what has happened since March to provide stronger support for children and young people in the short and long terms, and in particular if there is a second wave of this dreadful virus. Diolch yn fawr.

Hefin David AC: I've not been able to contribute to this report as I normally would, as I've been unable to attend the meetings of the Children, Young People and Education Committee because I've been looking after my children, which is something of an irony. I have a 13-year-old stepdaughter who is currently struggling with schoolwork, and a four-year-old autistic daughter, and a three-year-old very neurotypical daughter who loves being on television, and I don't know where she gets it from. Every time I try and do anything on Zoom, they're in the background, and the Chair will testify to that, because her first comment when we did our first Zoom meeting was that I should feed them more ice pops to get them off my back.
So, it has certainly been a challenge, and I've found with my youngest child the return to childcare has been very welcome and has made life easier, and I've also found with my 13-year-old stepdaughter that she has been able to access schoolwork and is now back in school, and her mother's been hugely supportive of her, and I've stood in awe to see that. The problem has been with my four-year-old autistic daughter, who's five on Saturday. It's been the biggest challenge of my life, and the past 10 weeks have been incredibly difficult. She was diagnosed autistic at the age of three and we've been seeking a statement for her, a statutory assessment for her, since last September, when she was first eligible to apply, and she was turned down on what I believe to be a technicality. I think, by now, if things had been normal she would have had a statement. She hasn't accessed any support or care that she needs whatsoever in the period of lockdown. It's simply been heartbreaking, very difficult, to see the regressive steps that she's taken and her language taking steps backwards.
The reason I say this is not for my own sake, because I have the wherewithal to contact the school and contact local authorities to deal with these issues, but I have had constituents contacting me in exactly the same position. I'd like to read you an extract from an e-mail from someone who has been in touch with me. This parent says,
'I'm the parent of four children between seven and 16'.
I've edited bits of the e-mail so that you won't be able to identify the person.
'My oldest daughter has ASD and clinically diagnosed anxiety, one child is transgender, has ASD and was a school refuser until this year. My 11-year-old has a diagnoses of global development delay and is due to start at a special school in September. My seven-year-old has a diagnosis of ASD. In addition to this, I'm a carer for my partner, who has three significant health conditions, which affect their ability to function day to day. Two of the children have a statement of special educational needs, and I'm about to start the process of applying for a statement for my youngest daughter.'
So you can imagine I empathise particularly with that aspect.
'My family has suffered greatly during lockdown. The abrupt withdrawal of the children's routines and the removal of any possibility of support for all of us has had a terrible effect. The children's social services have massively deteriorated and their challenging behaviour has got much worse. This has put huge strain on the relationship between my partner and myself. Initially I attempted to home school, but because of the children's additional needs and my role as a carer for the five disabled members of the family, it soon became clear to them that this was an impossible task. They've received no meaningful education since then.'
I understand and I empathise with that, and this is a condition and a situation that is far worse than the situation I find myself in, but what concerns me is that there are more people in Wales who are not reporting these conditions and we simply don't know about these situations because of that lack of reporting.
I'm a member of the local Sparrows additional learning needs voluntary group, and I know that there are parents there, too, who are in these positions and are struggling, particularly those children without statutory assessments—particularly those children. But also, when we talk about vulnerable children, and the definition of 'vulnerable', what do we mean by 'vulnerable'? Are they vulnerable because of their environment, or are they vulnerable because of the particular needs they have that parents simply aren't able to meet? These are questions that must be answered by the Welsh Government and by local authorities, and must be answered better than they have been answered so far.
What I would say as well is I welcome what we've done in Wales to take children back to school. It is massively welcome, and it's progress in Wales that is way ahead, I think, of the rest of the United Kingdom, and it is making a huge difference. But the concern I have got is, if there is a second wave, if there is a further lockdown, parents must not be—particularly those parents I've mentioned today—put in that position again.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Whilst recognising that school closure was a necessary part of controlling the pandemic, there was clear consensus among witnesses to the committee that the impact of not being at school on the well-being of very many children was very significant indeed. Hefin David has just described his own experience and his children’s experience very clearly, and others across Wales will have faced all sorts of challenges. The view of the witnesses to the committee was that priority should be given to ensuring the safest possible face-to-face contact between children and young people in schools. This highlights the importance of that special relationship between a pupil and a teacher and the experience of learning together, and how crucially important that is to education ultimately. Therefore, the announcement on the reopening in September for all children is sure to be welcomed by parents, by children and young people, but also by those witnesses who appeared before our committee when we were discussing these issues. And it will also be welcomed by the children’s commissioner.
But, of course, with a very real possibility of a second wave, it is crucially important that we learn lessons as a result of the challenges recently faced in trying to agree on arrangements for the return of our children to school. We must put the needs of the child or young person at the heart of everything and it’s crucial that we continue to make improvements to remote learning and remote connectivity and deal with the digital divide in case we do need to close all schools again, or to close schools in particular parts of the country at particular times. This too is particularly pertinent in the FE sector, and narrowing the digital divide in that sector has become something that clearly needs to be addressed.
In the committee’s report, 'Mind over matter', the crucial role of schools in terms of mental health and well-being is identified and this is true now more than ever. Before the arrival of the pandemic, the guidance that we had called for and the whole-school approach to dealing with emotional and mental health were being prepared. During our initial inquiry into the impact of COVID we did call for the publication of that guidance for consultation as a matter of priority, in order to ensure that support for the mental and emotional health of our children could be a significant part of their education. I am pleased to see that the guidance has now been published on 8 July and that it is now out to consultation until the end of September, but I do hope that the core principles will be adopted way before then.
It’s clear from the evidence that the committee received that we need to be careful and cautious as to how we weigh up the impact of COVID on the mental health of our children and young people, and to acknowledge that there are certain aspects, such as anxiety, stress and loneliness, that are natural responses to the challenges and risks that have emerged as a result of the pandemic. On the other hand and at the other extreme, Samaritans Cymru did tell the committee that it is too early for data to demonstrate exactly what impact the pandemic has had on suicide levels, and that we do need to very closely monitor those factors that can contribute to the risk of suicide.
As the committee Chair has already mentioned, what has become apparent is that it is very important now in this ensuing period that our children and young people know to whom they can turn for advice and support. That has become apparent because the schools and surgeries haven’t been available to them in the same way so that they can point them in the right direction towards the support that they need.
It’s therefore important that our recommendations—and returning again to the committee’s important report, 'Mind over matter'—it’s important that the recommendations on the gaps in services for children and young people and those who are described as the ‘missing middle’, those children and young people who don’t qualify for CAMHS services but can’t access other support, low-level support either—it’s so important now that those services are put in place and that they are properly funded during this next period as we deal with the pandemic.
I’ve focused on just two aspects of the report, but I would also like to thank everyone who gave evidence and contributed to our work at such a worrying time, and at a time when the picture is changing so exceptionally quickly. And I do think that we all need to monitor and keep a close eye on the impact of the pandemic on our children and young people over the summer holidays, and into the autumn and over these next years, indeed. Thank you very much.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Siân. I realise it's very difficult when you're Zooming in to quite know where you are in terms of time. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. For my contribution, I want to highlight some important aspects of the committee's scrutiny on the impact of COVID-19 as it relates specifically to vulnerable children and young people. I know that this Senedd shares a general concern for the future prospects of our children and young people but, as the report highlights, the committee heard specific concerns around safeguarding of children, and the fact that many problems may have become hidden from view.
So, I'd like to thank the partner organisations who provided such evidence to us. It was a sombre reminder that, very sadly, home isn't a safe place for every child. And while safeguarding agencies would have had intelligence about a number of vulnerable children, we have no idea how many more children became at risk during the pandemic, due to circumstances that lockdown created. The NSPCC told us:
'We are concerned that with the lockdown in place, children who are at risk of, or are experiencing abuse and neglect, risk being hidden from services.'
The evidence highlighted, for example, the important role that schools and teachers normally play in the disclosure of safeguarding issues. They are often the trusted adults who've been out of easy reach for so many children during this time.
We therefore scrutinised Ministers and the Deputy Minister on Welsh Government guidance as published on 1 May, and we welcomed the cross-Government approach to the needs of vulnerable children. The guidance includes the flexibility in criteria around vulnerable children, and providing wider access to the school hubs. And those plans were an important part of the effort to support vulnerable children over recent months. But we also heard concerns that vulnerable children were not making use of the hubs. And while the numbers steadily increased, still too many did not attend, and were largely unseen.
The committee is therefore suggesting that further evidence is required in order to understand in more detail what's happened during the period of the stay-at-home guidance. We know that for Welsh Government, social services authorities, safeguarding boards, and the organisations providing support and services, a significant drop in safeguarding referrals is a major concern, as it should be to all of us. And it's also been another huge challenge for our partners in local government, and because there was no easing of children's services legislation, then, quite rightly, the same standards remained in place and had to be responded to.
So, the task of keeping in touch with vulnerable children in a variety of care settings, and of minimising disruption to them, has required innovation and flexibility, and we've seen that through the greater use of digital technology during the crisis. But that can be limited in those home settings that do not have the necessary technology, despite the digital inclusion support that's been made available, and, of course, the inability of some parents, carers, and wider family members to actually provide the educational and emotional support that children need.
The committee also scrutinised provision for children with special educational needs, and we thank Ministers for their response. But the committee is very clear in asking that, if any relaxations occur, they contain a mix of the checks and balances that will be required to ensure SEN pupils receive the necessary support. And that was articulated so well by my colleague Hefin David earlier on.
In the time available, I can only highlight some of the aspects of the scrutiny undertaken by the committee. But we have been clear that the rights of the child, and the needs of vulnerable children and young people in particular, sit at the core of our work. We cannot let this pandemic be a cover for allowing those most vulnerable children and young people in our communities to be put at even greater risk. And I hope the committee's recommendations assist the Welsh Government, and other partners, with the important tasks that we face. This pandemic has been challenging for the most resilient of us, so let us be the voices that protect and look out for the least.

David Melding AC: And finally before I call the Minister, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer.

Suzy Davies AC: Can I thank all our witnesses, and other members of the committee as well? I hope that other Members here agree that this was a very pragmatic way of preparing a report in time for the school holidays, and it gives us the chance also to say thank you again to those families and children who've done their very best to continue with learning at home, and to those teachers and others working in education for helping make that happen.
The vulnerable and those from disadvantaged backgrounds have been at the forefront of our minds, and you've heard about that in the Chamber today. It's worth reinforcing, I think, the point that we don't just have Lynne's 'missing middle' but we have Dawn's 'missing new vulnerable' as well for the Minister to consider, reinforcing again that right to an education being a right for all. And I'm glad that we've spoken about the relevance of face-to-face learning in the debate today.
We know from our inboxes and from witnesses that provision and take-up have been inconsistent and that's why we'd be interested, Minister, to see those reports from consortia that you had back in mid June, not just to see the answers you've had—some of the data that Siân was talking about—but actually what questions you asked.
Staying with children's rights, I think most of the regulations brought in under the Coronavirus Act 2020 have not been subject to impact assessments, as we understand them, and so haven't been subject to children's rights impact assessments. And I'm not just talking about regulations that obviously relate to children and young people. We do understand, of course, that Welsh Government has had to act urgently in many cases, but an understandable lack of prior consultation can't also permit a loss of scrutiny on the effect of those regulations on children and young people, and I look forward to hearing from you with some information about when you might be reporting back on that. We need to know that, because, of course, we need to know whether your actions have been proportionate.
That's particularly true when we think about something that Hefin's already raised—those statutory obligations that benefit children with special or additional learning needs, which have been temporarily downgraded to a 'best endeavours' basis. And you've explained, Minister, in one of your letters to us that you would be monitoring the effect of this, especially for children who are at home rather than in school. So, if you could give us some indication of when this information will be gathered and when we can expect a report on that, I think that would be very helpful too.
Also affected—and again you drew the committee's attention to this in one of your letters in reply: local authorities for now only have to use their best endeavours to provide schools with their individual school budget for the forthcoming financial year. And you know our concerns about school funding, Minister. We understand that some consequential funding has come down from UK Government and into the Welsh Government COVID pot, if I can call it that, and that it's being used to support local authorities and schools to meet the costs of COVID. This is important, I think, because it comes on top, of course, of the costs connected with curriculum reform. Whereas finances for schools before lockdown were starting to look promising, cuts to both your and the local government budgets to feed the Government's COVID pot now place that optimism in danger, so perhaps you could give us some indication of when you might be able to get back to some certainty for schools about their finances in the coming year.
I have the same question as regards further education funding—there's less than seven weeks to go before the new term, and colleges still don't know what they'll be receiving from Welsh Government from funds that have come down as UK consequentials. When will your star chamber decide on this? And, at the same time maybe you could update Members on the awarding of qualifications that require a live demonstration of practical skills. It's about now that students would normally expect results.
And then, finally, just to go back to universities, the effects of COVID-19 on the economy leave very few opportunities for part-time work as students or more permanent work for new graduates. You may have seen the case of Rutendo Dafana in the press today. So, I'd be curious to know whether actually there is some work in development on student support that can be provided through Government and that the position is not as bleak as Lynne suggested.
We know that the financial challenge to universities was made very plain to us—we could be talking of up to £0.5 billion here. Current information suggests that satisfaction rates are positive and that applications from students, whilst still depressed, are perhaps a bit better than we thought. But application numbers are not the same as take-up numbers, and I suspect that this will be a hot topic when we come back in September and something that'll need both our Governments to be ready to discuss in order to support the sector. Diolch.

David Melding AC: I call the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Mr Melding. I would like to begin by thanking the CYPE committee for bringing the debate forward today. And I would also like to thank all the staff in our education settings, as well as our local authorities and other partners, for helping us to ensure the safety and well-being of our children and young people during the crisis. That has been, and will continue to be, my priority. The decisions that we made, and have continued to make, have not been taken lightly.
Closing schools and the disruption that caused for the education of our children and young people was the most difficult decision that I have ever had to make, but I believe that it was absolutely the right one, given the medical and scientific evidence that we had at the time of the risks of COVID-19 and the transmission of the virus at that point in our communities.But thanks to the efforts of our education settings and local authorities, despite those challenges we were able to move at pace to continue to provide school-based provision for vulnerable young people and the children of key workers, and that was established within a matter of days.

Kirsty Williams AC: The number of vulnerable children attending school has been discussed at length during this debate and has increased as lockdown progressed. That is something that is not unique to Wales, and our experience in persuading parents of vulnerable children to send their children into our hubs is one that was mirrored in Northern Ireland, England and Scotland. I have to acknowledge it took until we were able to open up all schools that we saw the numbers increase significantly, and that was one of my main reasons for opening all schools to check in, catch up and prepare at the end of this term.
If I could clarify, for Hefin, we have a very clear definition of what constitutes vulnerability during this crisis—a definition that was expanded and was supported by many of the key stakeholders that gave evidence to the committee, in terms of how we had identified children who were able to get support from hubs.
I acknowledge that for some of our special schools—our special educational needs schools—there have been particular challenges, but I would also like to highlight the very good practice. In many local areas special schools remained open, providing support for those children in familiar settings. It's a pity that Mr Melding is in an acting Presiding Officer role this afternoon, because he has some very good examples of a school, which he has a close connection with, that cares for very vulnerable children that has remained open throughout this pandemic and has supported parents to an excellent extent.
To help schools with their other functions during this time, we've provided guidance on the continuity of learning with our 'Stay Safe. Stay Learning' document.This comprehensive plan included consideration for the provision, not just of those children who would attend mainstream school, but also children that would otherwise be educated in places other than at school.
We also sought to tackle digital exclusion, provide additional learning resources and guidance for parents to how best to support their children during this time. I'm sure many colleagues will have seen the stories in England and Scotland of the millions that have been spent on laptops that never actually reached learners ahead of the summer holiday. And I'm very pleased that, thanks to the innovative way we invested our funding, and the hard work, again, of schools and local authorities, that was much less of a problem here in Wales, and we were able to quickly mobilise support for digitally excluded learners, ensuring that they were equipped with the kit that they needed to carry on learning.
Of course, we were very fortunate to be working off a strong base with our online learning platform, Hwb, which provides unparalleled access to a wide range of bilingual digital tools and content to support digital education transformation. Logins throughout this period to Hwb have been incredible, as has been the professional engagement with professional learning opportunities provided by our regional school improvement services to ensure that our professionals could get the most out of it also.
On the issue of vulnerability, again, Wales was the first country in the United Kingdom to guarantee free-school-meal provision during the Easter holiday, during the Whitsun half-term holiday and over the summer holiday. And we made that decision because we knew it was the right one to do, rather than being forced into it by a high-profile campaign.
But I know that transition to home schooling and online learning has not been easy and that, for some learners and their parents and carers, it has presented particular difficulties. On top top of that, as we've known from the children's commissioner survey, many learners have been concerned about missing school, about exams and results, about missing out on those end-of-year activities, saying goodbye to their friends and simply that structure that is so important to them. But mitigating the impact of this pandemic has been the major focus for the Welsh Government.
If I could turn to the issue of mental health, which, quite rightly has been the focus of this afternoon's debate also, in anticipation of increased demands of mental health resources, we have provided additional moneys to support children's mental health, on top of the investment that we made in counselling services and mental health support over the past year. And I am, indeed, very glad that we are now out to consultation on our whole-school approach. That work has been amended to reflect the COVID-19 situation, and I'm looking forward to a good response to the consultation that is out at the moment.
Can I say a little bit, briefly, about our youth services that moved to a new way of working and developed a new innovative practice, again at speed, and have continued to support children the length and breadth of Wales, although doing that in a very different form? And that support has been invaluable.
I remember, acting Presiding Officer, seeing a tweet from a youth worker right at the beginning of this crisis. She had been carrying out a weekly check-in with one of the young people—a primary-aged pupil that she was working with. She asked the young boy whether he was going to be okay, and whether he would have enough to eat and things to do. He replied to her and said, 'You don't need to worry about me—I'm going to be fine. I've been one that's chosen to be in the valuable group, so I'm going to school every day.' And I think that's wonderful that that school was able to identify that young boy as being valuable rather than vulnerable, and ensuring that he continued to have access, not only to the hub, but to his youth worker that was supporting him.
Last week I announced that all pupils will be able to return to school in September, and that is as a result of the hard work and the efforts of the people of Wales. We are now seeing community transition rates coming down, and that effort and hard work and sacrifice has allowed us to make that announcement. But I recognise that this needs to be planned and that schools and pupils will need support. And schools will have flexibility right at the very beginning of the new academic year to priorities certain groups of learners, as many already do. Safeguarding measures, such as hand washing, risk assessments and appropriate restriction measures will, however, have to remain in place, and updated operational and learning guidance was published earlier this week to support that return to school in September.
Also to support schools, we will recruit extra staff and support the recovery phase and continue to raise standards as part of our national mission by making available some £29 million in that effort. This is not a short-term fix, and I'm guaranteeing this money and extra staff and support for the whole of the next academic year. This means we will be able to recruit the equivalent of 600 extra teachers and 300 extra teaching assistants throughout the next school year. Extra support will be focused on those taking public examinations, as well as disadvantaged and vulnerable learners of all ages. Approaches could include extra coaching support, personalised learning programmes and additional time and resources for the examination of pupils.
Very quickly, acting Presiding Officer, we will be working with the childcare sector over the summer, and our aim is to increase the size of contact groups and support their move towards full operations, and I'm working very closely with my colleague the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to enable that to happen. And additional resources for support for families of vulnerable children has been made for the summer holidays. I recognise that nursery education has its own complexities, and we are developing further guidance to support the sector.
I have been clear throughout this pandemic that our priority must be to deliver maximum learning with minimal disruption for our young people, and I'm also clear that we must never lose our expectations that any of our young people, no matter what their background, can be supported to achieve the very highest standards. And I'm determined that we will not lose that momentum, despite COVID-19, and I know that that ambition is shared by teachers and parents across Wales.
Alongside our new curriculum, which I was very pleased to spend an hour and a half—

David Melding AC: We have hit 10 minutes now, so can you perhaps make this your concluding comment?

Kirsty Williams AC: Of course. Alongside our new curriculum, we are moving purposely into a new era for education, and I want to thank, once again, and put on record, my support for those teachers, teaching assistants, school support staff and further education and higher education staff that have made all of this possible during this most unprecedented time. Diolch.

David Melding AC: Thank you. I call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Can I thank all the Members who've contributed to this very important debate? I'll try and respond to as many points as I can.
Thank you, Janet, for your contribution and for your articulation of some of the very significant challenges that children and young people have faced in the pandemic, and you referred to the children's commissioner's survey and other sources of information, which are really helpful to reference. You highlighted the low numbers of children who have been attending the hub. I know that that's something the Welsh Government have also been frustrated about. We know that that was also a product of fear by lots of families, but it's certainly a point well made, as was your point about the need, proactively, for Government to reach out to those children that we didn't know are vulnerable, and that was a point that the committee made from the very beginning. I, too, would have liked to have seen quicker progress on that, and I hope that that is something we can continue to focus on.

Lynne Neagle AC: Hefin, can I thank you for your very powerful and heartfelt contribution? I recognise that that wouldn't have been an easy speech to make, but our deliberations and consideration of these matters are all the stronger for having you share those contributions with us. And just to assure you that the concerns about ALN provision are something that the committee are continuing to focus on; they'll be picked up in our very next letter, which is due to be issued shortly to the Minister. So, we are very much staying on those issues to try and make sure they're addressed, and, of course, it highlights so powerfully just how important access to school and early years provision is for our children and young people.
Can I thank Siân Gwenllian for her contribution and for her support for the stance that the committee has taken around the importance of children and young people being back in schools? Siân, you are absolutely correct when you say that we are very, very worried about the implications of a second wave for our children and young people, and that is why I think as a committee we are saying to Government that children and young people must be a priority, that they can't be the first thing that we close. We've got to make sure that it is a priority to keep them in education because we've seen what happens when we don't.
Thank you, too, for your contribution on mental health. Like you, I'm delighted that the whole-school approach guidance has been published for consultation and you are absolutely right that schools don't need to wait to start doing this. Lots of our really good primary schools are doing this already, and I hope that more will run with this before this becomes statutory guidance. Thank you, too, for highlighting the importance of keeping a very, very close eye on the impact of this pandemic on the rates of suicide and self-harm in children and young people. I'm so pleased that we've got people like Professor Ann John who are monitoring this constantly, and that she's now a member of the technical advisory group advising Welsh Government.
Dawn Bowden referred to the impact of the pandemic on vulnerable children. You highlighted the drop in safeguarding referrals—it was something like 27 per cent, which is very, very worrying at a time when we know that more children were at home in circumstances that we would probably be very concerned about. That is absolutely going to continue to be a priority for the Government.
Thank you, Suzy, for your comments and for, as usual, your very strong support for the CRIA process going forward. Now that we're out of the emergency stage as a committee, we really want to see the Welsh Government showing us their workings in relation to children's rights. Your points on school funding were very well made; that will continue to be a priority for the committee, and we cannot let this pandemic undermine the strategic investment in our children and young people.
Can I thank the Minister as well for her response today and also for her very constructive engagement with the committee throughout the pandemic and also for meeting me weekly, which has been very, very useful to me as Chair, to have those discussions with you? Thank you today especially for highlighting the really important role of the youth service in Wales, which is something close to the committee's heart.
I can see I'm taxing the patience of the Chair. If I could just close, then, by reiterating my thanks to the witnesses who gave us their time, at a time that was incredibly difficult for them to find time to talk to us, and to reiterate the committee's thanks toall the front-line staff who have worked so hard to try and keep children and young people safe throughout the pandemic, and just to let Members know that we will be continuing our very close scrutiny of the impact of the pandemic on children and young people alongside our scrutiny of the curriculum and assessment Bill, and we will be doing everything we can as a committee to ensure that, for the whole of the Welsh Government, children and young people will be a priority and protected from harm. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any Member objecting and the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

18. Plaid Cymru Debate: An Independent Wales

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, amendments 2, 5 and 6 in the name of Neil Hamilton, amendment 3 in the name of Gareth Bennett, amendment 4 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendments 7 and 8 in the name of Neil McEvoy. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3 and 4 will be deselected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendments 3 and 4 will be deselected.

David Melding AC: Item 18 is the Plaid Cymru debate: an independent Wales. Before I ask Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion, can I just say I have many more speakers than it's going to be possible to call? Those that I do call, please stick to time limits, otherwise I will be able to call fewer than I intend to. It's obviously a very popular and important subject. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Motion NDM7356 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that the people of Wales have welcomed the ability for Wales to act independently during the coronavirus crisis.
2. Recognises the success of independent countries of a similar size to Wales in dealing with the virus.
3. Believes that independence would give Wales greater agility and resilience in responding to future challenges.
4. Notes the increased support for an independent Scotland and a united Ireland.
5. Affirms the right of the people of Wales to decide whether Wales should become an independent country.
6. Calls on the Welsh Government to seek the constitutional right to allow the Senedd to legislate during the next term to hold a binding referendum on independence.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. It's my pleasure to formally move this motion and it's a pleasure to open this debate, which, for me, asks the Senedd to give the seal of approval to a fundamental democratic principle. As much as I am personally quite clear in my own mind that Wales could prosper as an independent nation, we are not asking the Senedd to support independence today, but asking the Senedd to support the principle that the people of Wales should decide.
I’m grateful to a constituent of mine who sent a letter to me this morning sharing her view that it's the right of the people of Wales to decide on whether Wales should become an independent nation. And she goes on to say that the power to call a referendum should be in the hands of the Senedd; after all, it's the right of any nation to determine its own future.
The last clause of this motion asks the Welsh Government to seek the constitutional right to allow the Senedd to legislate during the next term to hold a binding referendum on independence.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Yes, we're calling for Welsh Government to seek the constitutional right to allow the holding of a binding referendum on independence. Now, I've been a passionate supporter of independence all my life; passion can sometimes suggest an emotional drive to this, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't have a very emotional attachment to my country and its future. But I consider myself to be a pretty pragmatic man: independence, to me, isn't an end in itself, but a means to allow my country to provide a better future for its children, to be able to express itself as an open, outward looking, partnership building, welcoming, go-getting country, with its restrictions removed. Challenging? Goodness me, yes, and do you know what? If we're not up to the challenge, we can just carry on as we are: dependency, stagnation, poverty, poverty of opportunity, lack of investment. None of these do it for me, but that's Wales now: bubbling with good people, full of good ideas, a real sense of self, a sense of community and common venture, but unable to use all of those to anywhere near their potential.
Now, the context now, of course, is the pandemic. The UK currently has the third-highest number of deaths in the world, behind the USA and Brazil. Combined, they've formed a sort of axis of incompetence, accounting for over 250,000 deaths, almost half the global total. I've been critical of Welsh Government for much of its response to the pandemic, but I hope Ministers consider that I've tried to do that constructively and will have noted that there is much that I've welcomed from Welsh Government's approach too. And I think it's arguably been strongest where it has been ready to diverge—by sticking to the messaging to stay at home, for example, for longer, taking a generally more cautious approach.
Now, I think Welsh Government may privately admit that the biggest mistake it made was aligning too closely with the UK four-nations strategy. It led to mistakes such as restricting testing, backing away from test-and-trace early on and, of course, failing to lock down sooner. There are also plenty of examples of where the UK Government has actually undermined Welsh efforts: the hijacking of the Roche testing deal, suppliers of PPE being told not to supply Welsh care homes or dentists, a failure to adequately communicate the differing lockdown rules in Wales, the failure,as we've heard from the First Minister, to have regular enough communication between the Prime Minister and devolved leaders.
Now, I've no doubt that we could have done more were we in possession of the kinds of tools that independent countries have: the ability to devise and get the timing right on our own furlough scheme, allowing earlier lockdown—and, as a result, as we've seen from other countries, I think, an earlier exit, an earlier resumption of economic activity too—the ability to control borders, perhaps, to restrict transmission at key periods, as other small European nations were able to do; our own Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies would have tailored advice to Wales's needs right from the start. It's a long list.
To those who say we couldn't afford it, only the UK had the resources, I'm sorry to break it to you, but whilst the UK has vastly increased its borrowing to respond to the crisis that's our debt too. Surely much better would have been to do our own borrowing, tailoring the size, the terms and, again, the timing of that borrowing to suit our priorities.
In their statement on stabilisation and reconstruction in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic, issued yesterday, the Counsel General and the finance Minister said:
'We...do not have enough money.... Unlike the UK Government, we do not have the flexibility to increase our borrowing at times of urgent economic need.'
Well, exactly. I say: let's seek that flexibility, the kind of flexibility that independent countries have.
Wales hasn't performed as well as many other small independent nations. Look at Norway, Czech Republic, Croatia, Serbia, Lithuania, Iceland, Uruguay—they have death rates a tenth of Wales's death rates. But many will, of course, understandably and quite properly compare the Welsh and the UK approach, and, for so many people, this period has changed the way that they view Wales and the way we are governed, the way we can be governed. There's been a new realisation of the fact that we can do things differently, that there is real value in doing things differently—perhaps doing things differently can save lives, even.
I got an e-mail from a constituent yesterday—not a lifelong independence supporter; one who has come around to it in recent years—he was pleased that we were having this debate. This is what he said: 'I suppose that this will very much mark the cards for other Members that will knee-jerk support the union. I'm surprised by Lee Waters siding with Andrew R.T. Davies', he said, 'as more and more comes out about the general incompetence and duplicity of the Westminster Government handling of the COVID response.' I looked into this. On social media—where else, of course—the former Conservative leader in Wales had rubbished Plaid Cymru's support for independence. He said that we're
'spending too much time in the Nat Twitter echo chamber'.
A bit ironic, given his regular echoing around social media himself, but he's welcome to his views. Lee Waters stepped in—Deputy Minister—to say that he agreed with him, but another individual then asked him,
'what should Wales do when Scotland votes for independence and NI reunites with rest of Ireland?'
The response Lee Waters gave was 're-assess'. Now, I think that says a lot. Should we discuss our future as a nation after other countries discuss theirs? Is that what we want: to be a nation that tries to design its own future based solely on what others decide for theirs—a nation that will only even consider what's best for us if others put us in a position where we have to? We need to have that debate now, proactively, and that's why more and more people Wales wide are joining that debate. And it's pure democratic common sense that the choice should be ours, as a nation, through our national Parliament, to put that to a vote: our future in our own hands.

David Melding AC: Eight amendments have been selected to this motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3 and 4 will be deselected. I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 1, tabled in his name.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Supports Welsh devolution.
2. Recognises the benefits to Wales of being part of the United Kingdom.
3. Welcomes the significant support made available by Her Majesty’s Government to assist in the response to the coronavirus pandemic in Wales, including:
a) £2.8 billion allocated to support interventions in devolved matters;
b) support for more than 316,500 jobs via a Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme;
c) support for more than 102,000 people via the Self-Employed Income Support Scheme;
d) emergency finance for the steel industry;
e) a Job Retention Bonus to encourage employers to protect the jobs of furloughed workers;
f) a Kickstart Scheme for young job seekers;
g) a reduction in VAT for tourism and hospitality businesses;
h) an Eat Out to Help Out scheme to help cafes, restaurants and pubs; and
i) funding to decarbonise UK Government public sector buildings in Wales.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to continue to cooperate with Her Majesty’s Government to protect lives and livelihoods in Wales during the coronavirus pandemic.

Amendment 1 moved.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer—or temporary Presiding Officer—I'm delighted to see you in the Chair today. I move the amendment tabled in my name.

Darren Millar AC: Now, I have to say, I'm rather surprised that Plaid have chosen to table a debate on independence on today of all days. It's the last Plenary session before the summer recess and we could have been debating a whole host of more pressing matters—matters such as the Welsh Government's COVID-testing fiasco, the sluggish response to reopening the economy in Wales, or the need to extend the use of face coverings. But, instead, we're here navel-gazing, frankly, about independence as some sort of romantic notion to solve all of Wales's ills.
I must say that I find it very ironic that Plaid Cymru, who've spent four years arguing that Wales is stronger and more secure as part of a union of nations, the European Union—against the will of the public, might I add—is now calling for Wales to go it alone in the world and to divorce itself from the very union that protects our nations collectively.
We've spent too long in recent decades, in my view, debating the constitution in Wales. Every hour that we spend debating the constitution and constitutional tinkering is an hour that we're not debating how to raise standards in our schools, in our hospitals and to make our economy wealthier. So, instead of rowing about more powers constantly, let's use the powers we've already got and let's improve people's lives with them. The next decade of devolution needs to be devoted to delivering for the people of Wales, not more constitutional soul searching.
Now, we know that, over 20 years, support for independence has largely stagnated. The only political party in favour of Welsh independence that stood in seats—not all seats—at the last general election in Wales secured less than 10 per cent of the vote. That's a smaller share than Plaid actually won in the 1970s. So, ymlaen, comrades, let's see where this argument actually takes us.
And it's not just Plaid that's in a pickle on devolution either. Labour is in a mess too. You lot claim to be a unionist party. The First Minister himself has said that socialism is incompatible with Welsh nationalism. Yet he leads a party here in Wales that is home to a group called 'Labour for an Independent Wales'. Now, if Facebook likes are to be believed, this group has at least 600 members. So, if the First Minister really believes his own rhetoric and his mantra on devolution, then why isn't the Labour Party taking action now to expel these insurgents? Surely, that would send the sort of clear signal and strong message that a unionist party would want to send to people?
My party remains committed to the United Kingdom. We're not prepared to entertain those who actively campaign against it within our membership, and I challenge the LabourParty to make the same commitment.
Now, for the record, let me be clear: I am a staunch supporter of devolution, but I am no fan of an independent Wales. And for those who point to the last 21 years and say that devolution has failed Wales, I say, 'No, it's not devolution that's failed Wales; it's the Labour Party, along with their little helpers who've been in Government, Plaid Cymru included, and the Liberal Democrats and some of the independents that we've seen along the way. It is they who have failed Wales.'
Devolution is the settled will, in my view, of the majority of the people of Wales. Wales voted in 1999, albeit by a small margin, in favour of establishing devolution. They voted again in 2011 to extend the powers of this Senedd. And I find it extraordinary that some of the people who no doubt will contribute to this debate today will call for a further referendum on this institution's existence, or, even worse still, to scrap this institution without a referendum or any democratic mandate to do so. And it's probably going to be the very same people who said we should respect the Brexit referendum back in 2016 that are going to be making that argument.
Independence would be bad for Wales and it would be bad for the United Kingdom. It would make us less resilient to global events and catastrophes. We would be less secure. And, of course, we do know that, as a net beneficiary of the UK Treasury, Wales would be poorer. For every £1 spent in England on devolved matters, the Welsh Government currently receives £1.20. In 2017-18, Wales had an estimated fiscal deficit of nearly £14 billion. That's almost the total sum of the Welsh Government's annual block grant. So, an independent Waleswould have a very difficult choice to face: massive cuts—[Interruption.] I will. Massive cuts in public spending, or huge increases in taxation or a combination of the two. I don't think that that is the sort of recipe to get our country bouncing back from the coronavirus pandemic.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendments 3 and 4 will be deselected. I call on Neil Hamilton to move amendments 2, 5 and 6, tabled in his name.

Amendment 2—Neil Hamilton
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
Believes that:
a) by any reasonable measure, devolution has failed; and
b) support for scrapping the Senedd exceeds support for Wales' political independence from the UK.

Amendment 5—Neil Hamilton
Add as a new point at end of motion:
Believes that the Senedd should be scrapped.

Amendment 6—Neil Hamilton
Add as a new point at end of motion:
Calls on Welsh Government to seek the constitutional right to allow the Senedd to legislate during the next term to hold a binding referendum on its disestablishment.

Amendments 2, 5 and 6 moved.

Neil Hamilton AC: Thank you, temporary Presiding Officer. Well, I'm very surprised to hear Darren Millar agreeing with what Carwyn Jones said to me the last time we debated these matters, that devolution was the settled will of the Welsh people. Because, of course, if the 1975 referendum on membership of the EU had been the settled will of the British people, Darren Millar would not have been campaigning to have another referendum in 2016. And the truth of the matter is that, in a democracy, nothing can ever be the settled will of a people, because one generation can't be bound by its predecessors, and it would be quite wrong to attempt to constrain it.
So, to that extent, I'm in favour of Plaid Cymru's approach that, if there are a large number of people in Wales who want to vote for independence, why should they not be allowed to express that in the democratic way, by having a referendum upon it? So, I've no objection to that happening. I've no doubt that it would be rejected by the overwhelming majority of the people. But what we have seen in recent years is that, after 20 years of Labour and Plaid Government in Wales, there is no great affection for the devolution settlement that we've currently got. The Assembly never actually reached 50 per cent turnout in an Assembly election, and I doubt very much whether it will get to that level in the election next year if it takes place. So, there is no such thing as the settled will of the Welsh people, because the Welsh people themselves change, generation upon generation.
The most extraordinary thing about Plaid bringing this motion forward today is that, although they call themselves a nationalist party, they don't actually want an independent Wales at all, as Darren Millar pointed out. They're against the devolution of powers over agriculture, fisheries and environment, et cetera, to Cardiff, because they still strive to constrain Wales within membership of the European Union. Their idea of independence is that the major political decisions that Wales has to observe are made in Brussels; that our laws' final arbiters are based in Luxembourg; and our monetary policy and interest rates should be determined in Frankfurt. So, the idea that Rhun ap Iorwerth would have infinite borrowing powers in an independent Wales is absurd unless Wales were to have its own independent currency. So, is that now the policy of Plaid Cymru? I doubt it very much indeed. That was the hurdle over which Nicola Sturgeon couldn't jump in the Scottish referendum on independence.
And, of course, if Wales were to be politically independent from England, it would mean a hard border with England, because Plaid Cymru believes in open borders, immigration and making Wales into a nation of sanctuary, accepting all comers, which would certainly not be acceptable to the majority of the people of England. So, I'm not quite sure how that would play out with the Welsh people, either.
And as Sir Darren Millar pointed out effectively, the fiscal gap in Wales is vast; it amounts to nearly a third of Wales's GDP. The taxpayer subsidy from London and the south-east and eastern England to all parts of the UK, apart from those three, is huge and amounts in Wales to £4,289 per annum, per person. So, the idea that there would be infinite largesse that a Plaid Cymru Government of an independent Wales could dispense is absurd. Actually, what you would see is a massive contraction of the Welsh economy and all the poverty and deprivation that that would imply.
But I think what we have seen in the last 20 years is the comprehensive failure of devolution to deliver on the promises that were made for it at the time. Wales is the poorest nation in the United Kingdom, with an average income of 75 per cent of the UK average. We've got three quarters of the population covered by health boards that are either in special measures or targeted intervention. We've got the worst education results in the United Kingdom, according to the PISA tables. Devolution powers have been used by the Welsh Government in the last 20 years, but not in the direction that could have made devolution a success.
They haven't used these powers to try to secure some kind of competitive advantage over other parts of the United Kingdom; quite the reverse—they've added a ball and chain to the legs of the Welsh people. Over-regulation, the nanny state, we've seen it again this week in the Welsh Government's responses on coronavirus and the slowness of relaxation of the lockdown. The nanny-state attitudes of Labour and Plaid are there for all to see in trying to ban people from smoking outside restaurants and pubs now. Their virtue-signalling woke agenda is all they're interested in. Meanwhile, the interests of the Welsh people have stagnated, and relative to the rest of the United Kingdom, have actually declined over the last 20 years. Northern Ireland was at the bottom of the heap 20 years ago; today, it's Wales.
Now, that's not to say that a small country like—

David Melding AC: Order. Neil, I have asked—[Inaudible.]—

Neil Hamilton AC: Hello?

David Melding AC: —a couple of warnings. Well, it's a logical place for you to conclude. Thank you very much.

Neil Hamilton AC: Ah. Sorry.

David Melding AC: If amendment 3 is agreed, amendment 4 will be deselected. I call on Gareth Bennett to move amendment 3, tabled in his name.

Amendment 3—Gareth Bennett
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that the different lockdown policies introduced by different governments across the United Kingdom have led to confusion.
2. Recognises that the only real economic resilience Wales enjoys is as part of the United Kingdom.
3. Notes the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, which resulted in Scotland voting to remain as part of the United Kingdom.
4. Affirms the right of the people of Wales to decide whether Wales continues to have a devolved government.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to seek the constitutional right to allow the Senedd to legislate during the next term to hold a binding referendum on whether we keep or abolish the devolved government and parliament of Wales.

Amendment 3 moved.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you, Chair, and thanks to Plaid for bringing today's debate. We often hear speakers say at this point, 'On this important subject', well, today's debate, if we look at all the amendments, really is on an important subject, which is: should we continue to have an Assembly or Senedd at all? And the simple answer to that is, 'Yes, we should continue to have it, if it has the democratic backing of the Welsh people.' If it doesn't have that backing, then we shouldn't have it. Democratic consent is everything.
But we do need to hold referendums roughly every 15 to 20 years, so that we can ascertain what the public actually think, because, sorry, Darren Millar, there is no such thing as the settled will. Opinion changes over time, so we do need to measure it. I would say that the amendment I'm moving today, for the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party, is simply following the logic of Plaid's motion. Plaid assert in their motion that, I quote:
'the people of Wales have welcomed the ability for Wales to act independently'.
Well, who are these 'people of Wales'? Does everyone in Wales think the same? Plenty of people in Wales think that coronavirus has exposed the massive confusions that arise when you have four different Governments operating within the United Kingdom. Plenty of people have been discovering that they don't really want four Governments; they don't want four different NHSs across the UK, they want one NHS. They don't want four different sets of Government rules or four different furlough schemes; they want one set of rules and one furlough scheme, and so on. An awful lot of the people of Wales now see devolution for what it is, a costly inconvenience, and those people of Wales should be entitled to have their say.
Plaid's motion further states that independence would give Wales greater agility and resilience. Well, an independent Wales would certainly need agility since we would be running a massive budget deficit, and without the UK Government, who would we get to subsidise us? Who would Mark Drakeford and his Cabinet colleagues take their begging bowl to if we were not part of the UK? If Wales is going to prosper as an independent nation, as Plaid seem to think, then can they tell us precisely where the annual £15 billion English subsidy to Wales is going to come from once we are no longer part of the UK? Because the people of Wales might just want to know that.
Can we turn our attention to the two referendums that have addressed the issue of whether or not we should have a devolved body here in Wales? In 1979, Wales voted against devolution; in 1997, Wales changed its mind and voted to have an Assembly. That was fair enough; 18 years had passed in between and there was a strong case for asking the Welsh public again. We are now 23 years on from the 1997 referendum, which created this place. In addition, we have had 21 years of devolution. The public can now make an informed choice, based on the actual experience of devolution, as to whether or not they want it to continue. That is all we are asking, that the people are consulted.
In my party, of course, we want to abolish this place since we think it is a waste of public money, but we do not say that our ideas are more important than what the Welsh people want. Of course they're not; we simply say that we should have a referendum and then do precisely what the Welsh people tell us to do. After 23 years, it is high time that the people of Wales are allowed to have their say once again. That is why I'm moving this amendment today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

David Melding AC: Thank you. I call on the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip to move formally amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 4—Rebecca Evans
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the Welsh Government’s strong and effective leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic;
2. Considers that co-ordinated decision-making and messaging by the four administrations within the United Kingdom will most effectively address the challenges the pandemic presents for our citizens and businesses; and
3. Believes that Wales’s interests are best served by its continuing membership of a reformed United Kingdom, allowing co-ordinated governmental action to be pursued.

Amendment 4 moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Formally.

David Melding AC: That's formally moved.
I call on Neil McEvoy to move amendments 7 and 8, tabled in his name.

Amendment 7—Neil McEvoy
Add as new point at end of motion:
Believes that Wales should have its own constitution and bill of rights.

Amendment 8—Neil McEvoy
Add as new point at end of motion:
Believes that Welsh sovereignty should be exercised at a community and national level, including use of binding referendums through a public right of initiative.

Amendments 7 and 8 moved.

Neil McEvoy AC: Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. This is the third time we have debated a sovereign Wales in just over two years. It took 19 years to get the first debate, so we're making progress—we're making progress.
I'm really proud of Wales, I'm really proud of what we've achieved, and I'm even prouder when we go on to achieve more things when we have the powers. I support an old-fashioned concept, and it's called democracy. Decisions for Wales should be made in Wales.
I can't say that the Welsh Government has done a particularly good job over the last 21 years. It's not surprising, because we've had one-party rule, propped up by Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats, so I would agree with statements that we've not done well over the last 21 years. But we have to differentiate the institution and the political cartel that is running devolution and the Senedd at the moment. In a healthy democracy, Governments change, and I think that it will be a sign of political maturity in Wales when Wales is governed by a different party.
I also believe that in a healthy democracy people should directly have the opportunity to make the laws that govern them, and that's why I've put amendment 8. Introducing modern direct democracy is a key initiative of the Welsh National Party. It's something that many countries have, such as Switzerland, and rather than just having a vote once every five years and letting your Government take every decision for you, modern direct democracy means that people can take decisions for themselves. If enough signatures can be secured, then a local or a national referendum could take place that would be binding. It's government by the people.
As a member of the Petitions Committee, I've seen first-hand how, when given the opportunity, the public put forward insightful proposals. But, at present, they can only secure a debate in the Chamber by securing 5,000 signatures. I think that maybe if 100,000 signatures are secured, then they should be able to have a referendum, and I trust the people of Wales to do that and improve our democracy. Things like local development plans should be voted upon. If a corporation wants to put an incinerator in your community, the community should have a vote on it to decide whether or not things happen.
We also need a constitution and a bill of rights to ensure that minorities in our country are protected, along with the rights of individuals, and that's why I've introduced amendment 7. I've called for a Welsh constitution and a bill of rights.
The UK famously has no written constitution, but I think one is badly needed, and we can take the lead here by introducing one for ourselves in Wales. I'd like to see that happen with a national convention set up, with a citizens' assembly tasked with drawing up a constitution and a bill of rights before they're voted upon by the public. I see a constitution as a really, really positive thing, because people can look at—. Well, we can discuss, first of all, as a country, and we can say, 'What is Wales? What are we? Where are we going?' Guaranteed freedom of expression, a guaranteed right to a home, a right to a free education. These are all the kinds of things that we could discuss in a constitution, and then we could say, 'Right, that is us. That is Wales. If you come to Wales, you sign up to the constitution and you are Welsh.' That's something that the Welsh National Party is really keen to take forward.
I put the amendments because I want to see Wales move forward as a democracy, and we want to put the sovereign power back in the hands of the people who live in Wales, in an individual sense, in a community sense, and in a national sense as well. So, I'd ask everyone here to support two, I would say, fairly sensible amendments to the overall motion, which I will be supporting. Diolch yn fawr.

Dai Lloyd AC: Now, this COVID crisis has also shown the clear constitutional tensions that exist, and is leading many to question the long-term viability of the current settlement. Unfortunately, the crisis has shown the UK Government to be actively working against Welsh interests in certain areas. During the early stage of the pandemic, with nations from across the world racing to secure sufficient supplies of COVID tests, we were informed that a Welsh Government deal with a private company, Roche, to supply 5,000 daily tests in Wales had collapsed. Why? Because the UK Government kicked Welsh Government efforts into touch to ensure that England got what it needed. Welsh interests were of secondary importance. So much for this United Kingdom.
Only a few weeks later, we found that Welsh interests were again being relegated, with private suppliers of personal protective equipment being told by the UK Government agency Public Health England that they should limit the distribution of PPE to care homes in England only. Key orders of coronavirus protective masks, gloves and aprons were being refused to care homes in Wales and Scotland. Again, the United Kingdom not quite delivering for all.
Now, I have been generally supportive of the Welsh Government's cautious approach to easing lockdown, and generally it shows that when Wales has the freedom to act, it can make positive choices. We have shown that we can take a different path, and with Wales's per capita death rate lower than England's, I believe that the different path is justified. Recent estimates show that, during the pandemic period, had England matched Wales's lower rate of excess deaths, it would have resulted in 24,000 fewer deaths in England between March and June this year, according to the Office for National Statistics. David Cameron once pinpointed Offa's Dyke as the line of life and death, and these stats show that it truly is, though not in the way Cameron thought.
Now, Wales's constitutional future has never received so much attention, with focus on and support for independence at an all-time high. We are at a crossroads after the Brexit vote. At the ballot box next year the people of Wales will have a clear choice. We need to ask ourselves some fundamental questions. Just as in Scotland, where opinion polls now show a majority in favour of Scottish independence, it's only a matter of time until Wales needs to decide what is next for us. With Scotland gone, Northern Ireland too, there will be no UK. People in Wales will face a binary choice: Wales or England. Are we happy to become a county of England, as UKIP, the Brexit Party and other English nationalists want us? Or are we going to grow a backbone and decide that we are finally going to stand up for ourselves and take our place among the free nations of the world? One thing is clear: it should be the right of the people of Wales to decide whether Wales should become an independent country, and the Welsh Parliament should have the constitutional right to legislate to hold a binding referendum.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, some want to abolish Wales. I cannot betray centuries of the national history of Wales, of suffering, of sacrifice, of achievements of its people and its glories over 2,000 years. The pursuit of national freedom is a noble cause, for Wales as any other country. The dragon is stirring. Diolch.

Carwyn Jones AC: I listened carefully to the arguments put forward by Neil Hamilton and by Gareth Bennett. I was unconvinced by them, I have to say.

Carwyn Jones AC: May I first of all turn to what Plaid Cymru have said in their motion today? There is a constitutional convention already, which states that if a party stands on a manifesto commitment in favour of a referendum on independence, then there should be such a referendum. We've seen that in Scotland. So, in a way, we don't need to have this debate today, whatever your view on independence, and I speak as someone who isn't in favour of independence, but isn’t either in favour of the UK as it currently exists, and I’ll go on to explain that.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Carwyn Jones AC: I listened to Neil Hamilton. I have to say, he seems to forget his role in destroying the Welsh economy in much of the 1980s and 1990s. If I had stood here and said 18 years of Conservative Government were an absolute disaster and that is a reason then to get rid of the UK Government, he would say, 'No, no, no. It was because people voted for the Conservative Party in Government', and that's a legitimate viewpoint. In the same way, it's a legitimate viewpoint to say that people have voted for a Labour-led Government in Wales over the past 21 years, otherwise the risk lies in saying that somehow people are too stupid to understand how they voted, and that is the reality of it.
Now, I very much welcome what Darren Millar said, in some ways, because I think it's important that the Welsh Conservative Party becomes a proper Welsh Conservative Party with a proper leader, which you don't have yet, with a proper leader, and then outlines and puts itself forward as an alternative government, whilst accepting the institutions of devolution. I think that's very fair—as long as you remain an alternative government, from my perspective, but I think that's absolutely what is right for the Welsh body politic. I try to be as objective as possible.
What I did disagree with, and I'll come back to it in a second, is his view of the constitution as tinkering, and I'll explain why. I listened carefully to Gareth Bennett, and if he'd only realised it, he was making the case for another Brexit referendum, because if you say, 'Well you have to have a referendum every 15 to 20 years', well that applies to any subject. We'd have another referendum on AV, for example, on the voting system. We would continue to have referendums on Sunday opening. They were every seven years, of course, up until 1996, but that is the argument, essentially, he was making, that generations change therefore you must have a referendum every now and again to make sure that people are supportive of an institution, whereas I would say you judge that through an election. If a party, or parties, were elected to this place with a majority and said, 'We want a referendum on abolition', well there it is, then. That's the way you win an argument, by winning an election, not by demanding something that—especially from somebody who sits for a party that he did not get elected to this Chamber to represent—is not an attractive democratic argument.
If he listened to himself, he was making the case for the abolition of the Scottish Parliament. Now, if there was ever anything that would drive neutral voters in Scotland towards independence, that would be it. And he also implied that we'd see the abolition of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Now, 25 years of war led to the establishment of peace in Northern Ireland and that Assembly and its Executive. To simply dismiss it as an irrelevance is an act of gross irresponsibility. Now, I remember what Northern Ireland was like. Nobody would want to go back to what it was in 1992, believe me. My wife grew up in the middle of it, and to suggest somehow you just get rid of the Northern Ireland Assembly as if there were no consequences, in a society where there is no shared identity, is frankly—and I use this word advisedly—barmy.
But we have to remember, of course, that independence, in itself, can often be a cataclysmic event. Yes, there are examples of independence that was peaceful—the Czech Republic, the Slovaks, Iceland, Norway, going back more years—but quite often independence is accompanied by a great deal of bitterness and sometimes war—Yugoslavia, Ireland. Ireland had two years of civil war straight after independence, and there was then a low-level war that was fought in Ireland for at least 70 years that hugely affected its economy and hugely affected its people's identity. Thankfully those days are behind it.
And so my argument is basically this: I think there's an alternative. Now, for those of you who have trouble sleeping, you will know that I've given some lectures on this, recentlyin Aberystwyth University and elsewhere. The point is this: I believe in a sovereign Wales, but I believe that we can share that sovereignty with the other three entities within the UK. It's a kind of confederation. Now, I grant you that shared sovereignty doesn't have the same resonance electorally as 'Free Wales' or 'Rule Britannia', and it's a difficult concept to explain, but I say this to Darren Millar in the spirit of debate: I think we've moved well beyond constitutional tinkering; this is fundamental to the future of the UK. It's because of the constitutional inadequacy of the UK that we have these tensions. We have an opportunity now to set things right, get a constitution that works, where everybody understands where they stand and who does what, an equal partnership of four nations and one where sovereignty is held by each of the four nations but shared for the common good in areas where it is right to do so. I do fear that, if we don't go down that path, in 10 years' time, the UK will be a memory, and that is something, personally, that I'd regret.

Delyth Jewell AC: The COVID crisis has clarified so many things: what's important to our society, what we want to change, why decisions should be made close to the people they affect, and the crisis has also given us glimpses into different futures, because this debate about independence isn't a remote constitutional question for tomorrow; it is grounded in the urgency of now. This week, the First Minister confirmed that the Prime Minister of this so-called United Kingdom had not picked up the phone in a time of pandemic to him since the end of May. We are halfway through July. Last week, the Prime Minister said he was willing to tarmac over the Gwent levels and devolution in a brazen show of arrogant entitlement. And even now, in the dark corridors of Westminster, convention is being ripped up to ensure we crash out of the EU without a deal. Millions are being earmarked for border controls and barriers, and all the while the Tories plot their next assault on the powers of the devolved nations. That is the future of this beleaguered union.
Our motion offers something different, a glimpse, a hope of a future where the people of Wales decide our own destiny, a future that opens doors instead of closing them. Llywydd, the people of Wales are pushing at that door. Support for independence has reached levels many thought impossible. Yes Cymru activists are winning the argument on the ground, and the All Under One Banner marches show a confident nation on the move. We do not see independence as the end of a journey but rather its beginning, because independence is the only political answer to the question of how we can build a nation that reflects our values and realises our dreams. Given the tools, we in Wales can build a resilient nation, a progressive economy, a place that cares for young and old, where our environment can flourish and our people can build something better.
In an independent Wales, child poverty could be eradicated through investing in our education system, our workforce, alongside a benefit system that answers need. There is nothing intrinsic about Wales's poverty—it is a poverty of ambition that keeps us this way, a poverty of ambition writ large by this Welsh Labour Government's decision to delete our entire motion, instead of grappling with what's proposed, an attempt to close a door if ever there was one.
Llywydd, it is my great honour to be my party's shadow Minister for the future. There is a crude graphic from a Labour MP doing the rounds that screams about Welsh debt, ignoring conveniently the fact that the UK's debt currently stands at £2 trillion. Surely, the biggest debt we owe is to future generations, because politics is currently failing those generations. We've known for more than 40 years that a carbon dioxide catastropheis facing us because of the levels that we are releasing into the atmosphere, and still we are releasing 40 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide every year. We can't control what happens in other countries, and trying to get Westminster to see the light is a fool's errand, but what we can do is take responsibility for ourselves. Through harnessing rather than burning our natural resources, we in Wales could lead the way and become a beacon of an enlightened economy facing the future proudly.
This motion is not asking Members to vote on independence; it is affirming that the people of Wales should have the right to decide. I spoke of different futures, and I know that many Members on the Labour benches share the vision I've set out of a globally-responsible nation espousing hope, equality and prosperity. I'd say to them that without independence, no other path will point us toward that future. For as long as we remain part of the union that impoverishes our people and follows economic policies designed to benefit the wealthy centre at our own people's expense, we will never reach our potential and all paths will fork back on themselves. If we want to build something better after COVID, our future cannot be decided in the ramshackle ruins of Westminster. So, I'd ask all Members of this Senedd to show their belief in the people of Wales, I'd ask them to keep that door ajar, and I'd ask them to vote for our nation's future, not its past.

Mick Antoniw AC: Llywydd, I welcome this debate, which, despite its pejorative title, is really about the future structure of the UK and Wales's relationship with the other three nations of the UK. Now, during the COVID pandemic, we have moved significantly beyond our former concept of devolution, to a version of four-nation government. Devolution is a reform that has had its time, and we must now look to a modern and radical constitutional reform, to make Wales and the UK fit for the twenty-first century and beyond.
There isn't time in this debate to develop complex arguments around Plaid Cymru's various concepts of independence and what it actually means in a global, capitalist economy. This is a common problem with this debate—terms are often used that mean different things to different people, and without definition. Independent from whom, how? And there are many other questions. But rather, in the short time available, I would like to confirm my commitment, and that of Welsh Labour—and I think indeed that of UK Labour—to a constitutional convention, which will also need to address the issue of democratisation and reform for England, and to tackle the English question, which is vital in this debate.
It is important to restate, I think, a fundamental, international, United Nations and, indeed, socialist principle, mainly that all nations have the right to self-determination. The type of Government in Wales, and its relationship with the rest of the UK, must always be a matter of choice for the Welsh people. And as long as that is the free and democratic choice of Welsh people, then Wales is indeed independent. Choosing to share sovereignty, however that is defined, if freely made, is not contrary to independence. The UK was no less independent by being part of the European Union, and Wales would not be any less independent by freely being in a constitutional and financial relationship with the UK.
But reform must, in my view, happen soon, or the UK risks breaking up, or at the very least a process of fragmentation by default, and with adverse social and economic consequences for the people—[Inaudible.]—vital. Now, the cross-party, inter-parliamentary forum, which is a body of all the constitutional and legislative committees in the various Parliaments of the UK, including the House of Lords, has stated on numerous occasions, in solid agreement, that the current constitutional arrangements are not fit for purpose.
Llywydd, I'm not a nationalist, and I reject nationalism as a negative and divisive ideology. I prefer an approach that is based on the decentralisation of power, bringing power as close to people and communities as possible. Now, we recognise the common interests that working people and communities in Wales have with their counterparts in England, Scotland and in Northern Ireland. I'm also not a unionist. It's simple: I'm a socialist. And the guiding principles of a constitutional convention should be to develop a constitutional framework, acceptable to all four nations, to be approved by referendum, based on the principles of justice, equality and the fair distribution of wealth for the benefit of all four nations, and all the people of the UK.

The Deputy Minister, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: I'd like to thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion in the last session of this Senedd. It's provided a very lively debate, which I think has focused on the positive impact of devolution for Wales, with the Welsh Government's response to the coronavirus pandemic. And I think the debate has provided the opportunity to highlight the many ways in which we've used our powers, with growing strength and confidence, led by the First Minister, in the handling of this terrible virus, to protect and safeguard our citizens and public services. And I have to say that the robust scrutiny of the Welsh Government by this Welsh Parliament, in the Senedd and our parliamentary committees, has stood us in good stead. And I do thank the Llywydd and her officials for making this scrutiny happen from the earliest days of the lockdownand onwards.
But this is the democracy we sought for Wales, with a House of Commons Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee noting in 2018 that
'Devolution is now an established and significantfeature of the UK constitutional architecture and should be treated with respect to maintain the integrity of the United Kingdom.'
The current pandemic, as has been said in this debate, has drawn attention to the way in which our constitution works, both its strengths and its weaknesses, and our ability to pursue our own approach, as Rhun ap Iorwerth acknowledged, and the need to co-operate with others. Self-rule and shared rule, and the propositions in 'Reforming our Union: Shared Governance in the UK', published by the First Minister last year, have set out the Government's position.
Regarding the proposition for a referendum, and following Carwyn Jones's points, our view is that, if a Welsh Government has secured an electoral mandate to hold a referendum on a fundamental constitutional question, it is entitled to expect the UK Parliament to make the necessary arrangements. Provision for a legally binding referendum on Scottish independence in 2014 was made by the UK Parliament, following a clear majority won by the Scottish National Party in the 2011 election. But that precondition is essential. For Westminster to be asked to make the arrangements for a referendum on the constitutional status of Wales—that request must come from a Welsh Government with a mandate to do so, and no such mandate presently exists. But those who seek a referendum in the next Senedd, whether to secure independence, or, indeed, abolition, can make their case to the people of Wales next May. But the view of this Welsh Government is clear: we believe that Wales's interests are best served by a strong devolution settlement within a strong UK, and the United Kingdom is better and stronger for having Wales in it.
The current settlement isn't perfect. Our current constitution is outmoded and inappropriate. The four Governments of the United Kingdom should operate as equal partners—each respecting the legitimate identity and aspirations of the others, whilst co-operating for the benefit of the union as a whole. And as Mick Antoniw has stated, the constitutional convention, long called for, could take us forward in achieving this. And nothing illustrates the need for this case to be made so acutely than our current experience. Viruses do not carry passports, nor do they respect national borders. Our businesses are not only dependent on Welsh customers; our economy is inextricably linked with the rest of the United Kingdom and beyond. The health needs of our citizens are no different from those elsewhere, and tackling COVID-19 calls for more co-operation between Governments, not less.
If we look at our engagement with the other Governments of the United Kingdom since the beginning of the pandemic, they've been largely positive. Expeditious—[Inaudible.]—of the coronavirus has actually led to close co-operation between all four Governments and it's an example of what we can achieve when we work together. But unfortunately, as we move into different phases of response and recovery, it's the UK Government that appears to be pulling away from the four-nation approach.
I do welcome Darren Millar's statement today of being a staunch supporter of devolution and I hope you, Darren, will raise your voice, as will the Welsh Conservatives, to get the UK Government to help remove those unreasonable restrictions on our budget so that we can use our fiscal powers more effectively.
The support for jobs and businesses initially announced by the Chancellor was welcomed. And the resources and levers available to him are far greater than would be available to us, if we were standing alone. But we face the deepest recession in living memory—[Inaudible.]

I think we—

Jane Hutt AC: —in living memory and that, I think—

Jane Hutt would bounce back, wouldn't she? [Laughter.] Jane Hutt, carry on.

Jane Hutt AC: Okay. The steps that were outlined last week by the Chancellor don't go far enough to meet the scale of the challenges we face. We need more extensive and far-reaching action to tackle this crisis head on, and to build back better.
I'll say finally, Llywydd, that our priority for the Welsh Government today, and every day in the coming weeks, is to respond to the coronavirus pandemic, and the people of Wales would expect no less. But it is relevant to say, in responding to this debate, that, more than ever, we need to jointly establish those inter-governmental mechanisms to ensure we can address the many challenges that lie ahead.
The former First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, subscribed to the 'powers for a purpose' model of devolution. Our First Minister, Mark Drakeford, today spoke of 'assertive devolution', and he has demonstrated the positive impact of this assertive devolution in Wales and in the UK, as our First Minister.
But with our powers, what people want to know is what can we do? We've given key workers free childcare during the lockdown, approved a £500 payment for our care workers, delivered an economic resilience fund over and above UK Government consequentials, granted £20 million to end homelessness, we've worked with local authorities to co-ordinate free school meals and to bring our children back to school, and we've supported those with no recourse to public funds, working with our partners in the NHS, local government, business and the third sector to safeguard and protect Wales. That's been our priority, Llywydd, and I urge you all to support our amendment and reject all the other amendments. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. At the heart of this historic first debate, this parliamentary session's last debate, is the simple but fundamental proposition that the decision on whether Wales should become an independent nation must rest alone with the people of Wales. We believe that Wales's right to determine its constitutional future, including the right to become an independent country, should the people of Wales vote to do so, should be enshrined in law. Specifically, this requires conferring on this Senedd the power to choose when and whether to call a referendum on Wales's constitutional future, giving practical effect to the right of the people of Wales to choose the form of governance best suited to their needs, and also how, and who with, they want to pool their sovereignty.
Democracy is by definition government by the people. But then we have to decide who the people are, and for us the answer is obvious. The people are the people of Wales, who live within its borders and collectively form a nation that enjoys the right to self-determination that is a basic tenet of international law, a founding principle of the United Nations charter and, as Mick Antoniw said, of the Socialist International. So, we hope many Labour Members will join us in supporting our motion tonight.
This sovereign right of the people of Wales to determine their own future is the cornerstone of this Senedd. But currently our accumulative legitimacy, the powers we hold, are not ours by permanent right in a formal sense, but loaned to us by another Parliament that describes itself, without irony, as 'supreme', even as it crumbles slowly into the Thames. That is a constitutional conceit with which the Labour Welsh Government has said it firmly, firmly disagrees.In its White Paper 'Reforming our Union: Shared Governance in the UK', the Welsh Government said this:
'Parliamentary sovereignty as traditionally understood no longer provides a sound foundation for this evolving constitution…it must be open to any of its parts democratically to choose to withdraw from the Union.'
So, when we affirm in this motion the right of the people of Wales to decide whether Wales should become an independent country, we should reasonably expect this Government to support Wales's claim of right. But what we have from the Government is a parliamentary wrecking ball tonight, a 'delete all' amendment that removes all reference to the right to determine our own future. It says nothing about the voluntary nature of this union, and it introduces the lion and unicorn mythical pairing, so beloved of progressive unionists—a reformed United Kingdom.
The Welsh Government's position is the constitutional equivalent of St Augustine's plea, 'Make us sovereign, Lord, just not yet.' No, let's give the idea of a reformed UK, which would allow for co-ordinated governmental action to be pursued, one last heave, even though we've seen, over the last few months the catastrophic mistakes of a dysfunctional, incompetent, shambolic—the First Minister's words, not mine—Westminster Government that has treated the Welsh Government and the Welsh nation in a manner that has oscillated between benign neglect and outright contempt, led by a political and administrative elite that still believes that Westminster knows best, even as Britain registers amongst the worst death rates in the world.
When it comes to reform in any area—the First Minister mentioned earlier today the limbo in social care since the Dilnot commission—Westminster makes Godot look positively punctual. We will never make change by waiting for others to change things for us. We can either assert our right to determine our own future, or else we will find the future determined for us—whether it's the tarmacking of the Gwent levels, or the latest state-aid power grab by the Chancellor.
Whatever we decide tonight, it's important for our Welsh democracy that the debate in here reflects the debate happening already out there. And whatever our view on the question of independence, the right of the people of Wales to ask it should be inalienable. For us in Plaid Cymru, the answer to both those questions is 'yes'—yes to having a say, and yes to 'yes'. The people of Wales are on the move, and they are where they should be—in the vanguard, in the driving seat, leading the debate and listening to ours tonight.
When the story of our independence is written, these last few years of crisis and upheaval, from Brexit to COVID, will, I think, loom large, and for this reason, because, rather than causing people to cleave to the old certainties, these times of crisis have opened people's minds to new possibilities. That slogan, 'building back better', resonates for us all now in different ways. We have lost so many, but we have gained an understanding of what we truly value. That is the golden thread, the silver lining from the dark cloud of this time. We, the people of Wales, are the builders of that better Wales. No-one else will build it for us, but, if we believe in ourselves and in each other, there is nothing we cannot achieve.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections, therefore I defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Point of Order

And before we move to voting time, I have agreed to a point of order from the Deputy Minister, Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Llywydd, thank you for allowing me to make a point of order. In my opening contribution to the debate on 20 mph, I correctly said that, last year, 80 children were killed or seriously injured in road collisions in Wales. In my closing contribution I misread my notes and used the figure of 800. I hope you'll accept this was a reflection of fatigue, not an attempt to mislead. I'm grateful for the chance to correct the record, and I offer my apologies.

Thank you for correcting the record.

In accordance with Standing Order 34.14D, there will be a break of five minutes before we begin voting time. Five minutes.

Plenary was suspended at 19:58.

The Senedd reconvened at 20:07, with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

19. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The first vote this afternoon is on the Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications and Site Visits) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. The result of the vote is 41 in favour, 12 abstentions, one against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

The Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications and Site Visits) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020: For: 40, Against: 1, Abstain: 12
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on Stage 4 on the Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. In favour 53, no abstentions and none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Stage 4 Wild Animals and Circuses (Wales) Bill : For: 53, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on introducing 20 mph speed limits in Wales, and I call for a vote first of all on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour of the amendment 44, four abstentions and five against, and therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment 1 Siân Gwenllian - Welsh Government debate: Introducing 20mph Speed Limits in Wales: For: 44, Against: 5, Abstain: 4
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the motion as amended in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7355 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the report of the Taskforce chaired by Phil Jones setting out recommendations on how to change the default speed limit for restricted roads in Wales to 20mph.
2. Notes the international research which demonstrates the road safety benefits, including a reduction in child deaths, of reducing default speed limits to 20mph.
3. Recognises the Welsh Government roll out of 20mph pilot projects, as precursor to a default 20 mph speed limit across Wales, and the future community benefits this will bring.
4. Supports the Welsh Government’s intention to commence consultation on the proposed making of an order by statutory instrument (which will require approval by a resolution of the Senedd) reducing the general speed limit for restricted roads to 20 mph.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to set out its proposals as part of the consultation to ensure that enforcement agencies have the appropriate resources to respond to the proposed order.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, two abstentions, and six against, and therefore the amended motion is agreed.

Welsh Government Debate: Introducing 20mph Speed Limits in Wales: Motion as amended: For: 45, Against: 6, Abstain: 2
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the motion to amend Standing Orders on the committee functions relating to the oversight of the Wales Audit Office. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in my name. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions and two against. And therefore the motion is agreed.

Motion to amend Standing Order 18.10: Committee Functions Relating to the Oversight of the Wales Audit Office: For: 51, Against: 2, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the motion to amend Standing Orders on the Electoral Commission and the Llywydd's committee. I call for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. In favour 55, no abstentions, two against. And therefore, that motion is approved.

Motion to amend Standing Orders: The Electoral Commission and the Llywydd's Committee: For: 51, Against: 2, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on an independent Wales, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. In favour nine, one abstention, 43 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales - Motion without Amendment : For: 9, Against: 43, Abstain: 1
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We now move to a vote on the amendments. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3 and 4 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions, 40 against. And therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 1 Darren Millar - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 13, Against: 40, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendments 3 and 4 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 2 in the name of Neil Hamilton. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour two, abstentions two, 49 against. And therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 2 Neil Hamilton - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 2, Against: 49, Abstain: 2
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 3, and if amendment 3 is agreed, amendment 4 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 3 in the name of Gareth Bennett. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour two, two abstentions, 49 against. And therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed.

Amendment 3 Gareth Bennett - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales : For: 2, Against: 49, Abstain: 2
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment 4 Rebecca Evans - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 29, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 5 is the next amendment, tabled in the name of Neil Hamilton. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour two, two abstentions, 49 against. And therefore, amendment 5 is not agreed.

Amendment 5  Neil Hamilton   - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 2, Against: 49, Abstain: 2Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 6, in the name of Neil Hamilton. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour two, two abstentions, 49 against. Therefore, amendment 6 is not agreed.

Amendment 6  Neil Hamilton  - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 2, Against: 49, Abstain: 2Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 7 in the name of Neil McEvoy is the next amendment. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, two abstentions, 42 against. And therefore, that amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 7 Neil McEvoy - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 9, Against: 42, Abstain: 2
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 8 is the final amendment, and I call for a vote on amendment 8, tabled in the name of Neil McEvoy. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour one, two abstentions, 50 against. And therefore, that amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 8 Neil McEvoy - Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales: For: 1, Against: 50, Abstain: 2Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7356 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the Welsh Government’s strong and effective leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic;
2. Considers that co-ordinated decision-making and messaging by the four administrations within the United Kingdom will most effectively address the challenges the pandemic presents for our citizens and businesses; and
3. Believes that Wales’s interests are best served by its continuing membership of a reformed United Kingdom, allowing co-ordinated governmental action to be pursued.

Open the vote. In favour 29, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, the amended motion is agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate - An Independent Wales - Motion as amended: For: 29, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings us to the end of our parliamentary term. We will meet again in August in two Zoom sessions, but let me hope that you can all, as Members, both on Zoom and here in the Chamber, have some chance to have some rest and some sunshine over the next few weeks.

Thank you, all, and goodnight.

The meeting ended at 20:26.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Mandy Jones: Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government efforts to support freedom of religion in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I was pleased to announce last week that places of worship are now able to open for communal worship and religious ceremonies. Collective worship and ceremonies can also be held outdoors where this is organised and supervised.

Neil McEvoy: Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for victims of domestic abuse whose children are removed by social services?

Mark Drakeford: All victims and survivors of domestic abuse, including those close to them, can access tailored advice, guidance and support via our free 24/7 Live Fear Free helpline or website. Local authorities make arrangements to support a child taken into care.

Rhianon Passmore: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the extra amount of money Wales will receive as a consequence of the UK Chancellor’s summer statement?

Mark Drakeford: Wales will receive £12.5 million in new revenue consequentials directly related to the UK Chancellor's summer economic statement and no additional capital funding. Any suggestion that Wales has received an extra £500 million is misleading as it includes funding already announced and measures we have already funded in Wales.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport

John Griffiths: What steps will the Welsh Government take to address concerns of a surge in road traffic journeys as Covid-19 restrictions are lifted?

Lee Waters: I have allocated £15.4 million to local authorities to introduce measures to improve safety and conditions for sustainable and active travel modes and to achieve sustained changes in future travel behaviour. Newport County Council will receive £600,000 of this.

Questions to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales

Nick Ramsay: What plans does the Welsh Government have to improve transport links to the new Grange University Hospital when it opens in November 2020?

Ken Skates: Transport to the new Grange university hospital has been integral to the planning of that site from the very beginning. We want to make sure that patients, relatives and staff from the whole of the catchment area are able to find their way in a timely fashion.

Darren Millar: Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for businesses in the hospitality sector in Wales?

Ken Skates: Our £1.7 billion business support package, which is equivalent to 2.6 per cent of our gross value added,complements other UK schemes andmeans that companies in Wales have access to the most generous offer of help anywhere in the UK. More than 60,000 businesses across Wales have also received grants from the business rates scheme, worth almost £730 million. Many of these will be in the hospitality industry.